Does this mean that I am a neocon?

[admiralsnackbar]

The ONLY reason that I don't think this is a coincedence is the fact that they were wearing bandanas too. Either way, who cares.

You may care if you were hispanic and people were obviously ing with you (ie, not a coincidence), in the way the Irish might care if people came to school wearing Union Jacks, or blacks would care if people came to class wearing black-face or dixie flags on MLK day. Again... it shouldn't be a big deal, but we're talking about teenagers.

[Oh, Gee!!]

even if the kids were wearing the shirts to get a rise out of people, it was out of line on the part of the principal. as far as I can tell, no riots ensued because of the t-shirts. seems more like the principal's ego was bruised, and he went on power trip to heal it.

[alchemist]

Yeah, they are proud to been americans. Freaken troublemakers

right.......

[Drachen]

Five friends at the same table?

I forgot about the "at the same table" part. Like I said, I thought it was intentional, but if that's all they did, then they feel like they stayed true to whatever values and no harm no foul. At the same time, I bet it was intentional that a large portion of the school wore stuff representing Mexico that day, do they get kicked out of school?

Where are the celebrations/observances of Irish independence day/Bloody Sunday. How about the day of mourning for the initiation of the Trail of Tears? Battle of Waterloo?

[alchemist]

even if the kids were wearing the shirts to get a rise out of people, it was out of line on the part of the principal. as far as I can tell, no riots ensued because of the t-shirts. seems more like the principal's ego was bruised, and he went on power trip to heal it.

I think the Principle should've left them in school to be honest, couple verbal fights won't hurt too much.

[LnGrrrR]

I am, too, which is why I said I philosophically agree. At the same time, I can sympathize with a principal who doesn't want any started in loco parentis on a real, practical level.

Do problems upon problems fall out of the reaction? Absolutely. Was it a short-sighted, reactionary policy? Absolutely. Are school policies ever otherwise? Not in my experience. Were it up to principals, kids would all wear uniforms.

I think the right thing to do in this situation would have been to address it ahead of time with a policy that stated certain patriotic items would be inappropriate to wear.

Failing that, I feel the principal should have waited to see if negatIvity occurred around the students.

I understand the principle behind the CYA decision. I'd like to think I would have ruled otherwise though.

[Duff McCartney]

I knew a few dumbass liberal kids back in high school... "America is evil! We go to war! We bomb children!"

If you hate America so much, GTFO.

I don't agree with your statement, but I do have to ask if America has bombed children, like has happened before..don't you consider that evil? What is the cost of criticism? How much does it take? I'm just asking rhetorical questions here I am sincerely wondering.

I think it was Robert Wuhl who said it best "Everyone loves their country in a different way. Some people it's a 'Love it or leave it' type of thing, and for those of us who have been married 20 plus years it's more of a 'Sure she pisses me off at times, what the am I gonna do you know?'".

[Spurminator]

even if the kids were wearing the shirts to get a rise out of people, it was out of line on the part of the principal. as far as I can tell, no riots ensued because of the t-shirts. seems more like the principal's ego was bruised, and he went on power trip to heal it.

But it's the principal's job to prevent that riot from occurring if he thinks it's a possibility.

I'd lean towards this being an overreaction, but I'm not going to feel sorry about a few at udinal teens getting the day off from school.

[jack sommerset]

I am however completely confused by the fact that it seems very stupid and self-harmful to continue to choose living in a country that you don't have love for especially when there is one that (it seems) you would prefer to align yourself with.

I was at a Allen Americans game (hockey) a few weeks back. There was this row of mexicans, all ages from around 4-50. They had Dodgers, Yankees, Allen and Cowboy shirts on. They were singing American songs LOUD and somewhat clear from Taylor Swift to Michael Jackson to Neil Freaken Diamond. They cheered for their favorite hockey team, the Americans but when they did the national anthem before the game they refused to take off their hats, stand and all of them put their heads down until the song was over.

Durning the game I started talking to a few of them. They live in Allen Texas and said they were americans but consider themselves more mexicans and will only respect that anthem. I find that odd.

[Drachen]

You may care if you were hispanic and people were obviously ing with you (ie, not a coincidence), in the way the Irish might care if people came to school wearing Union Jacks, or blacks would care if people came to class wearing black-face or dixie flags on MLK day. Again... it shouldn't be a big deal, but we're talking about teenagers.

Your analogies don't hold up. This would be the same as if at a school in germany on Irish independence day, someone came to school wearing a German Shirt. Or if someone came to school in Mexico on MLK day wearing a Mariano Abarca T-shirt.

[Spurminator]

At the same time, I bet it was intentional that a large portion of the school wore stuff representing Mexico that day, do they get kicked out of school?

There is a difference. Wearing Mexican clothes on Cinco de Mayo is not openly confrontational, unless you're talking about a student wearing a "Mexico > USA" shirt (or something similar), in which case my guess is he would have been asked to change as well.

These students were being openly confrontational with their clothing. Sure it's freedom of speech, but high school students are not afforded the same First Amendment protections as adults and I'm okay with that, frankly.

Where are the celebrations/observances of Irish independence day/Bloody Sunday. How about the day of mourning for the initiation of the Trail of Tears? Battle of Waterloo?

I'm sure kids would be allowed to wear related clothing on those anniversaries.

[jack sommerset]

right.......

I'm sorry buddy. There is nothing wrong with kids wearing USA t's on cinco de mayo. Nothing wrong with people wearing USA t's on St Pattys day. Don't forget, this is america.

How bout the Spews people send the Los Sun fans home when they show up in those T's in their building. Freaken troublemakers!

[DarrinS]

Does anyone really think that five friends wearing over-the-top American flag clothing (bandanas?!) on Cinco de Mayo was an accident or coincidence?

There's nothing wrong with there clothing in and of itself. But you'd have a hard time convincing me that the intent was not to be provocative. And high school students do not have first amendment rights to wear clothing that creates distraction or could lead to hostility.

I think the intent was pretty clear. The only thing the school did wrong was to give them the attention they wanted.

But I'd expect them to do the same thing if ten white buddies were gathering together wearing solid white on MLK Day. Nothing wrong with wearing white. But let's be real.

Huh? WTF? Especially your comment about wearing white on MLK Day.

This reminds me of the Dallas man that thought the term "black hole" was racist. GMAFB.

[admiralsnackbar]

Your analogies don't hold up. This would be the same as if at a school in germany on Irish independence day, someone came to school wearing a German Shirt. Or if someone came to school in Mexico on MLK day wearing a Mariano Abarca T-shirt.

C'mon now... I think if you'd try, you'd see they do hold up. Like it or not, Chicanos are minorities in this country, the same way the Irish were once considered in England, and not unlike Blacks were/are in this country. When the dominant culture s with you on the basis of your ethnicity, it brings up old resentments.

As a white dude, it may not be your intention to stir up these irrational feelings (and you probably won't even be aware of it when you do) but that doesn't change the way some people might feel like you're ing with them.

[LnGrrrR]

I don't agree with your statement, but I do have to ask if America has bombed children, like has happened before..don't you consider that evil? What is the cost of criticism? How much does it take? I'm just asking rhetorical questions here I am sincerely wondering.

I have no problem with rhetoric. I just detest those that take actions which may be reprehensible, and then use it to paint a wide group. People who say that soldiers love killing brown people because of a few stupid soldiers. People who say that America is evil, without thinking of all the good we do, etc etc.

I personally think the usage of nukes during WWII was unjustified and unethical due to the high amount of civilian casualities it caused. However, I don't think deciding to do so was "evil". There were valid reasons pro and con on that decision. I don't think the Founding Fathers were racist because they kept slaves... it was a totally different mindset back then, and I judge them according to the morals at the time.

There are only a few people in history that were nearly all evil... Caligula, Hitler, and a few others.

I think it was Robert Wuhl who said it best "Everyone loves their country in a different way. Some people it's a 'Love it or leave it' type of thing, and for those of us who have been married 20 plus years it's more of a 'Sure she pisses me off at times, what the am I gonna do you know?'".

That's why I said I'm fine with people disliking aspects and working to change those. Totally cool. I just hate people who say that our country is evil, government is evil, yadda yadda yadda. If you feel that strongly about such a broad portion of the country, one that is essentially "unfixable", then either work to change it or leave.

I found that many of the peope with these simplistic thoughts also were not likely to try fixing it. But that's just my personal experience.

[Drachen]

There is a difference. Wearing Mexican clothes on Cinco de Mayo is not openly confrontational, unless you're talking about a student wearing a "Mexico > USA" shirt (or something similar), in which case my guess is he would have been asked to change as well.

These students were being openly confrontational with their clothing. Sure it's freedom of speech, but high school students are not afforded the same First Amendment protections as adults and I'm okay with that, frankly.



I'm sure kids would be allowed to wear related clothing on those anniversaries.

Honestly for me I am not even about making this a free speech thing, but I guess that is what it boils down to. You say that wearing Mexican clothes on the anniversary of the battle of puebla against the french isn't confrontational, but it obviously is to (at least) these 5. PC goes both ways man (but we all know it doesn't). As far as the kids wearing related clothing on the anniversaries those days that I mentioned, I am sure they would be allowed to do so. My question is, will all mexican themed clothing, and american themed clothing be banned on those days?

They have been given the blessing by the school (either implicit or explicit) to overtly celebrate a holiday from another country. Fine, I think this is a little odd, but whatever, I don't have to agree with everything everyone does. But now it is encroaching upon americans celebrating their americanness, that is where the problem begins.

[LnGrrrR]

Durning the game I started talking to a few of them. They live in Allen Texas and said they were americans but consider themselves more mexicans and will only respect that anthem. I find that odd.

Eh... I picture it this way. If you lived in France for ten years or so, and really liked the country, you might get into their sports/politics/etc, yet still be proud of your own anthem.

I find many Mexicans are proud of their heritage/culture, at least as much as Americans if not moreso, and they're not quick to relinquish that iden y.

[Duff McCartney]

I have no problem with rhetoric. I just detest those that take actions which may be reprehensible, and then use it to paint a wide group. People who say that soldiers love killing brown people because of a few stupid soldiers. People who say that America is evil, without thinking of all the good we do, etc etc.

I personally think the usage of nukes during WWII was unjustified and unethical due to the high amount of civilian casualities it caused. However, I don't think deciding to do so was "evil". There were valid reasons pro and con on that decision. I don't think the Founding Fathers were racist because they kept slaves... it was a totally different mindset back then, and I judge them according to the morals at the time.

There are only a few people in history that were nearly all evil... Caligula, Hitler, and a few others.



That's why I said I'm fine with people disliking aspects and working to change those. Totally cool. I just hate people who say that our country is evil, government is evil, yadda yadda yadda. If you feel that strongly about such a broad portion of the country, one that is essentially "unfixable", then either work to change it or leave.

I found that many of the peope with these simplistic thoughts also were not likely to try fixing it. But that's just my personal experience.

I think we just have to agree to disagree. Which I don't agree with either. But I digress, the reason I have no "pride" in America is that we use rhetoric like "Greatest nation on Earth" and other bull and yet we say it's fine if we up.

Don't get me wrong I understand ups, but sometimes I feel like people don't even make an effort to fix these ups. Like Iraq, like it's something that can simply be brushed off or put on the back burner. That's the reason I have high criticism of the US. Because we can do so much better and so much more, yet for reasons unknown we don't.

[admiralsnackbar]

But now it is encroaching upon americans celebrating their americanness, that is where the problem begins.

The only thing this encroached upon was the principal's nerves. High-school kids have no real freedoms (or at least we didn't when I was a kid). To extrapolate from a HS situation to broader life seems a bit hyperbolic.

[LnGrrrR]

These students were being openly confrontational with their clothing. Sure it's freedom of speech, but high school students are not afforded the same First Amendment protections as adults and I'm okay with that, frankly.

How is that being openly confrontational?

Were they saying something like "America is superior"? What's wrong with showing pride in YOUR country, on the same day some Mexicans show pride in Mexico?

As well, just because students have somewhat limited First Amendment rights while in school, I do not think that justifies any and all reductions of that right.

[boutons_deux]

"Because we can do so much better and so much more, yet for reasons unknown we don't."

"reasons unknown"? GMAFB America does whatever profits corps and capitalists.

All the American ups are driven by greed.

[admiralsnackbar]

I know cold war examples are a bit passe, but would people be fine if a bunch of kids wore red CCCP shirts on the 4th of July?

[Drachen]

C'mon now... I think if you'd try, you'd see they do hold up. Like it or not, Chicanos are minorities in this country, the same way the Irish were once considered in England, and not unlike Blacks were/are in this country. When the dominant culture s with you on the basis of your ethnicity, it brings up old resentments.

As a white dude, it may not be your intention to stir up these irrational feelings (and you probably won't even be aware of it when you do) but that doesn't change the way some people might feel like you're ing with them.

Right they are still minorities, and yet (after admittedly hard fights), they have the right to do things such as celebrate a holiday commemorating the a battle between two other countries.

Try this analogy: this is basically similar to the fact that many minorities prefer the hyphenation of their ancestry mexican-american, african-american, etc. and they won't stop until those who are comfortable just being americans, start calling themselves European-Americans.

How about there finally is starting to be some progress, you do your thing, let us do our thing and quit making enemies out of each other.

Edit: I felt uncomfortable typing that last sentence because I know that everything isn't perfect. I guess my point is that neither side should be going overboard. If progress is made in one area, the quickest way to retract that progress is to overreach.

[LnGrrrR]

I think we just have to agree to disagree. Which I don't agree with either. But I digress, the reason I have no "pride" in America is that we use rhetoric like "Greatest nation on Earth" and other bull and yet we say it's fine if we up.

I can understand being critical of this. I am not saying that America is the greatest nation on Earth... that's taking it to its opposite extreme. I'm saying extremes on either side are silly/juvenile.

Don't get me wrong I understand ups, but sometimes I feel like people don't even make an effort to fix these ups. Like Iraq, like it's something that can simply be brushed off or put on the back burner. That's the reason I have high criticism of the US. Because we can do so much better and so much more, yet for reasons unknown we don't.

Do you really think the whole country feels that way though? I doubt it.

America does bad things. So do other countries. There are some countries I feel we are more moral than, and some that we are probably less moral than. The point of being a good citizen is to give voice to what you think is right, not to shout empty jingoisms.

[LnGrrrR]

I know cold war examples are a bit passe, but would people be fine if a bunch of kids wore red CCCP shirts on the 4th of July?

Sure. It's a political statement, which I feel should be protected by the First Amendment.

I feel that anything that is not blatantly offensive (ie obvious stuff like swear words, violent images, etc) should be allowed. Again, I am very libertarian on First Amendment issues.