Does this mean that I am a neocon?

[Drachen]

I know cold war examples are a bit passe, but would people be fine if a bunch of kids wore red CCCP shirts on the 4th of July?

Still completely different, the correct analogy would be if this were in a russian school and on July 4th, the russian school kids wore shirts with the soviet flag. What do they care, it celebrates something that happened between two entirely different countries.

[jack sommerset]

Eh... I picture it this way. If you lived in France for ten years or so, and really liked the country, you might get into their sports/politics/etc, yet still be proud of your own anthem.

I find many Mexicans are proud of their heritage/culture, at least as much as Americans if not moreso, and they're not quick to relinquish that iden y.

Honestly, I just found it odd. They were into so many things american (clothes,songs,sports) but couldn't even take their hats off to show some sort of respect. Instead they put their heads down as if they were ashamed. I have no clue what the protocol is in this case but when a canadain hockey team comes to play the Stars, I stand. When I was at a world cup qualifer at the alamo dome a few years back, I stood for the mexico and domician republican anthem. Like I said, I found it odd.

I'm thinking now I am a really great guy that doesn't have a racist bone in my body unlike some other folks in here.

[admiralsnackbar]

Right they are still minorities, and yet (after admittedly hard fights), they have the right to do things such as celebrate a holiday commemorating the a battle between two other countries.

Try this analogy: this is basically similar to the fact that many minorities prefer the hyphenation of their ancestry mexican-american, african-american, etc. and they won't stop until those who are comfortable just being americans, start calling themselves European-Americans.

How about there finally is starting to be some progress, you do your thing, let us do our thing and quit making enemies out of eachother.

It makes sense, and it sounds great, but it's harder to do in practice.

Like I said, the Cinco is historically irrelevant. When Chicanos celebrate it, it is as a celebration of their heritage, not in remembrance of a pissy little Mexican victory against the French. All people are proud of their roots, but this pride necessarily creates divisions of us-vs-them. We can try to have it your way and the way I'm describing (that's, I think, what it means to be an American), but it's imperfect.

[mogrovejo]

I know cold war examples are a bit passe, but would people be fine if a bunch of kids wore red CCCP shirts on the 4th of July?

Is this an analogy? CCCP Shirts-> American flag shirts; 5 de Mayo -> 4th of July?

I think most civilized people would be absolutely fine, btw.

[admiralsnackbar]

Still completely different, the correct analogy would be if this were in a russian school and on July 4th, the russian school kids wore shirts with the soviet flag. What do they care, it celebrates something that happened between two entirely different countries.

I guess I'm not making myself clear, but I think if you would actually trust my analogy and see what I'm trying to convey, then amplify the feeling because we aren't talking about nationality but race/ethnicity, that you might understand where I'm going.

4th of July is a day where we express our pride in being Americans. If somebody in 1950's Iowa came to school on that day wearing a CCCP shirt, it would clearly be an attempt to piss you off. You may respect their right to wear the shirt, but you would feel disrespected. If we take the same line of thought to race/ethnicity, and accept as a given that Americans have had a rocky road assimilating minorities, somebody wearing what is now a US shirt on your "I'm proud to be brown day" may piss you off. It's sad that it's this way, and it has nothing to do with Chicano's patriotism, but then, wearing a US flag to with somebody's special day isn't terribly patriotic, either. Legal? Sure. ? Also.

[admiralsnackbar]

Is this an analogy? CCCP Shirts-> American flag shirts; 5 de Mayo -> 4th of July?

I think most civilized people would be absolutely fine, btw.

Thanks for weighing in, as ever.

[jack sommerset]

Thanks for weighing in, as ever.

Sorry

[admiralsnackbar]

Sorry

[Drachen]

I guess I'm not making myself clear, but I think if you would actually trust my analogy and see what I'm trying to convey, then amplify the feeling because we aren't talking about nationality but race/ethnicity, that you might understand where I'm going.

Ok, I disagree with you and your analogies, but I will relent. If we are talking about ethincities then the flag should be irrelevant, but I back down here because I guess we won't reach a point of understanding on this.

I will probably get really really flamed for this, but it seems to me a culture of victimization is being bred in if THIS is offensive. I understand that I will not understand everything since I don't care about the times I was a "victim" of racism, but this smells of proactively looking for excuses to get pissed.

[admiralsnackbar]

Ok, I disagree with you and your analogies, but I will relent. If we are talking about ethincities then the flag should be irrelevant, but I back down here because I guess we won't reach a point of understanding on this.

I will probably get really really flamed for this, but it seems to me a culture of victimization is being bred in if THIS is offensive. I understand that I will not understand everything since I don't care about the times I was a "victim" of racism, but this smells of proactively looking for excuses to get pissed.

I understand where you're coming from, but just because you've made peace with history doesn't mean all groups have or should. History is all people need to get pissed, and it takes generations to work it through.

[mogrovejo]

I will probably get really really flamed for this, but it seems to me a culture of victimization is being bred in if THIS is offensive.

Yeps. If the director had reasons to be concerned then it's pretty obvious that there's a huge problem, at least among some Hispanic students in that school.

[Drachen]

I understand where you're coming from, but just because you've made peace with history doesn't mean all groups have or should. History is all people need to get pissed, and it takes generations to work it through.

Ok, great, work for equal rights, I will help, but don't work for UN-equal rights. Once again PC goes both ways. So we either open everything up, or shut everything down.

[ChumpDumper]

I think the school missed out on a teachable moment.

[jack sommerset]

I understand where you're coming from, but just because you've made peace with history doesn't mean all groups have or should. History is all people need to get pissed, and it takes generations to work it through.

The root of racism.

[admiralsnackbar]

Ok, great, work for equal rights, I will help, but don't work for UN-equal rights. Once again PC goes both ways. So we either open everything up, or shut everything down.

We're both working it out right now, just like millions of other people. I don't feel victimized as a minority because I'm educated, assimilated, and have earning potential... but I understand why other minorities may not feel that way because they aren't here yet. , some people never get over their anger and carry it to their grave -- their loss. Point is, it's a process. All we can do is be cool and hope people choose to be cool in their due time.

[admiralsnackbar]

The root of racism.

Absolutely so.

[Drachen]

The root of racism.

I wouldn't go quite that far. It is absolutely understandable that a race scorned might have trust issues with the race that scorned them, but progress, not regression needs to be made. Don't get mad at some people doing the EXACT same thing you are. If that race scorned continues looking for proof of that scorn, they will find it even where there is none.

Ok, nevermind, I reread my post and I guess that pretty much makes it the root of racism. LOL

[Fpoonsie]

It seems fairly obvious that these kids were trying to get a rise out of people, especially considering the current political climate w/ regards to Mexican-American policies. The fact that these kids not only chose to wear American flags in some kind've feeble attempt to show "solidarity", but that they ALSO wore similar bandannas, which I'm sure they knew weren't allowed at school, is the very telling part of this story.

I think trying to paint these kids as some kinda "free speech martyrs" is overreaching. Seems to me that they were just trying to piss people off.

I have no problem w/ what the principal did, given the students' initial disregard for the school dress code policy.

[Spurminator]

Huh? WTF? Especially your comment about wearing white on MLK Day.

This reminds me of the Dallas man that thought the term "black hole" was racist. GMAFB.

You don't think ten buddies wearing solid white T-shirts on MLK Day would be su ious?

[Drachen]

On a lighter note, I have to ask, does Fox News always have polls like this

"You Decide : Ban the American Flag - In America?"

I love it.
Do most of their polls end up 99%-1%??

[LnGrrrR]

If we take the same line of thought to race/ethnicity, and accept as a given that Americans have had a rocky road assimilating minorities, somebody wearing what is now a US shirt on your "I'm proud to be brown day" may piss you off. It's sad that it's this way, and it has nothing to do with Chicano's patriotism, but then, wearing a US flag to with somebody's special day isn't terribly patriotic, either. Legal? Sure. ? Also.

Maybe I missed something, but how is wearing a US flag shirt on Cinco de Mayo ipso facto insulting someone?

It's not like the kids were saying "America is better" or anything similar.

And it's not very similar to the CCCP shirt example, because, ya know, we're not at war with Mexico.


You can't protect people from being offended, IMHO. People who take umbrage to someone wearing an American flag motif in school, in America, is just silly. Assuming that it was worn offensively is jumping to conclusions that don't seem supported by the facts. Per the article:

The five teens were sitting at a table outside Live Oak High School in Morgan Hill, Calif., on Wednesday morning when Assistant Principal Miguel Rodriguez asked two of them to remove their American flag bandannas, one of their parents told FoxNews.com. The boys complied, but were asked to accompany Rodriguez to the principal's office.

Does this sound like the actions of children who were out to prove the superiority of their culture/nation/heritage?

[Drachen]

It seems fairly obvious that these kids were trying to get a rise out of people, especially considering the current political climate w/ regards to Mexican-American policies. The fact that these kids not only chose to wear American flags in some kind've feeble attempt to show "solidarity", but that they ALSO wore similar bandannas, which I'm sure they knew weren't allowed at school, is the very telling part of this story.

I think trying to paint these kids as some kinda "free speech martyrs" is overreaching. Seems to me that they were just trying to piss people off.

I have no problem w/ what the principal did, given the students' initial disregard for the school dress code policy.

I am not clueless to what they were trying to do, I am saying that there is a problem when wearing an american flag in the USA is offensive. These kids were obviously "offended" by the upcoming display of the Mexican flag in the USA and therefore chose that offensive symbol to wear to school.

[Spurminator]

Honestly for me I am not even about making this a free speech thing, but I guess that is what it boils down to. You say that wearing Mexican clothes on the anniversary of the battle of puebla against the french isn't confrontational, but it obviously is to (at least) these 5. PC goes both ways man (but we all know it doesn't).

If they have a problem with it they should address it with the school through other means. Not by picking fights.

As far as the kids wearing related clothing on the anniversaries those days that I mentioned, I am sure they would be allowed to do so. My question is, will all mexican themed clothing, and american themed clothing be banned on those days?

I don't think there are many kids or teachers in the public school system who would make the connection anyway. And that's not to knock them. I wouldn't have either as a high schooler.

They have been given the blessing by the school (either implicit or explicit) to overtly celebrate a holiday from another country. Fine, I think this is a little odd, but whatever, I don't have to agree with everything everyone does. But now it is encroaching upon americans celebrating their americanness, that is where the problem begins.

Again, you're giving the kids a little too much credit for what they were doing. They weren't celebrating their heritage. They were flaunting it.

[LnGrrrR]

You don't think ten buddies wearing solid white T-shirts on MLK Day would be su ious?

Not really.

[LnGrrrR]

I think trying to paint these kids as some kinda "free speech martyrs" is overreaching. Seems to me that they were just trying to piss people off.

Let's say this is the case... which doesn't seem at all proven yet, to me.

Should we prevent children from making political statements in school?