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  1. #126
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    I think they relied on an informed electorate, recognizing the corruption and voting them out of office.

    Corporation buy power...only politicians can buy votes. And, they can't do that with an informed electorate with integrity.

  2. #127
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    That was a piece of the puzzle, but not a particularly important one. The Framers were very su ious of democracy - they wanted to protect some political bodies from the democratic pressure (something that progressively has been lost, with the primaries and the election of Senators). "Democracy" was basically a pejorative term for them, their model of government was a Republic.

    Plus, how do you guarantee an "informed electorate with integrity"? If you could guarantee that, you could pretty throw away all the trouble with the check-and-balances system and just go for a direct democracy. The reason why they didn't do that is because the fortunes of liberty can't depend on the existence of an informed electorate with integrity (a notion most Founders would find contemptible) or in the integrity and good faith of their elected representatives - they understood that in such a scenario, they'd quickly revert to the kind of despotic government they had just overturned.
    You can't. Inherently the biggest problem with libertarianism.

  3. #128
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    You think it's flawed? I'm surprised, if there's an overwhelming consensual point in political science, something that pretty much everybody agrees from left to right, it's the state's monopoly on violence, at least since Weber. It's been an extremely dominant view for more than 100 years; I'd never imagine that part of my post would be a subject of polemic. Deeply surprised.

    Why do you think it's flawed?
    It may be a consensus that a legitimate state has a monopoly on violence but saying that corporations have no forms of coercion because of that is simply non logical.

  4. #129
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Like who?

    Anyway, you're putting too much emphasis on the dimension aspect. By that reasoning, we probably need a world government.

    George Clinton was actually the one right in this aspect. Lots of republics way smaller than most American states are doing perfectly fine. It's about the ins utional mechanisms, not the size.
    Some degree of world government is needed.

  5. #130
    Cogito Ergo Sum LnGrrrR's Avatar
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    Sure, that's the point of view of anarcho-capitalists. From that perspective, the state simply wouldn't exist at all.
    Do you think an anarcho-capitalist government would be sustainable in the long run? Desirable?

  6. #131
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    Some degree of world government is needed.
    Why?

  7. #132
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    I do agree that decentralization of power is far more desirable to be completely honest. I don't think a world government with much power is something we should ever hope to see. In fact I think the United States is a great example of why power in the hands of local people is far better.

    For one you get views represented more accurately. IE Medicinal Marijuana. On the federal level we'll never see it legalized, but on the state level we have tons of places where its legal. If it were up to municipalities I promise you there would be places like Amsterdamn in this country but the fact that the power is held at the federal level tends to this up.

    I also think if defense responsibility was held at the local level then we would not be involved in so many foreign exercise and we would actually focus on DEFENSE.

    I do wonder how corporations would fair in such an environment. There would be far more governments for them to worry about (as opposed to just the members of a national congress) but I wonder if they'd be able to enact more influence over them.

  8. #133
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    "I wonder if they'd be able to enact more influence over them."

    Do you think health/medical insurers, auto insurers in TX don't already own the TX insurance regulators and TX legislature? State legislators and elected judges are even cheaper to buy than federal legislators.

    How do you think tort reform occurred in TX? It certainly wasn't voted on by citizens who are denied access to the courts. It was the doctor and insurance lobbyists who bought enough legislators to obtain tort reform.

  9. #134
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    It may be a consensus that a legitimate state has a monopoly on violence but saying that corporations have no forms of coercion because of that is simply non logical.
    It strikes me as being more pointedly legalistic. Any untoward attribution to corporations can be bracketed as essentially unrelated to its formal raison d'etre. (As if regulatory capture and political venality were to be regarded as being activities strictly unrelated to a corporation's bottom line or rate of profit. Har har.)

    Corruption pays, otherwise people wouldn't make the gamble, right mogrovejo?
    Last edited by Winehole23; 05-07-2010 at 03:34 PM.

  10. #135
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    RG-Some degree of world government is needed.

    Some degree of standardization and settlement of disputes.

    Lunch hour is over, but I will expand on this later.

  11. #136
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    Some degree of standardization and settlement of disputes.
    Some people call them treaties.

    How is a world government going to enforce its will on a nation that doesn't want to agree to some arbitrary standard? How is a world government going to decide what is its will to be foisted on us?

    Look at the disaster that's become of Europe since they've unionized; and, you want some form of that globally?

    Nah, I like national sovereignty and a people's ability to forge their own nation based on self-interest and compromise with their neighbors. I think the chess board is set and we just need to work with like-minded countries to eliminate the rabble from the planet.

  12. #137
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    Any news on the Obama oil platform sabotage conspiracy, yoni?

  13. #138
    keep asking questions George Gervin's Afro's Avatar
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    Some people call them treaties.

    How is a world government going to enforce its will on a nation that doesn't want to agree to some arbitrary standard? How is a world government going to decide what is its will to be foisted on us?

    Look at the disaster that's become of Europe since they've unionized; and, you want some form of that globally?

    Nah, I like national sovereignty and a people's ability to forge their own nation based on self-interest and compromise with their neighbors. I think the chess board is set and we just need to work with like-minded countries to eliminate the rabble from the planet.
    in other words kill everyone who doesn't believe the USA is the best country that ever existed

  14. #139
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    in other words kill everyone who doesn't believe the USA is the best country that ever existed
    Nope.

    But, we could start by eliminating those that don't believe in individual's right to life. liberty, and property, who treat their women like cattle, their gays like pinatas, and their children like conscripts.

    I'm pretty sure most Europeans don't believe the USA is the best country that ever existed and I don't advocate eliminating them. There are a least a half dozen 13th-Century Caliphate wanna-be countries out there with which we could start.

  15. #140
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    Is Yonivore volunteering to enlist to fight his own personal jihad?

  16. #141
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    There are a least a half dozen 13th-Century Caliphate wanna-be countries out there with which we could start.
    Don't be shy. Please name them.

  17. #142
    uups stups! Cant_Be_Faded's Avatar
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    Did I hear correctly that they had the oil spill set afire after one or two days, but the government had them put the fire out?

    wtf

    someone let me know can't find out for sure.

  18. #143
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    Why? Because I'm an equal opportunity critic?

  19. #144
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Why? Because I'm an equal opportunity critic?
    It was a reasonable, sensible post that seemed to understand the point I was making. Just not used to it is all.

  20. #145
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    Why? Because I'm an equal opportunity critic?
    You were in this thread anyway. Unfortunately, I would not label you in that way through most threads.

  21. #146
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    It was a reasonable, sensible post that seemed to understand the point I was making. Just not used to it is all.
    And I'm not used to you being reasonable from my perspective.

  22. #147
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    You were in this thread anyway. Unfortunately, I would not label you in that way through most threads.
    There are very few times I disagree so much with what Darrin or others say.

    Very few. I disagree with you and others rather often.

    That's one problem with the liberal mindset. They think equal opportunity requires quota's. I'm not about to count my criticisms and try to balance it in a quota fashion.

  23. #148
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    There are several people on this board I disagree with on a regular basis I believe are reasonable. You are not one of them. You are far more likely to assume unlikely conspiracies than you are an objective viewpoint.

    But don't take my word for it, ask around.

  24. #149
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    And I'm not used to you being reasonable from my perspective.
    That makes us even.

  25. #150
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    There are very few times I disagree so much with what Darrin or others say.

    Very few. I disagree with you and others rather often.

    That's one problem with the liberal mindset. They think equal opportunity requires quota's. I'm not about to count my criticisms and try to balance it in a quota fashion.
    That's one problem with the conservative mindset. They use every opportunity to create ad hominem and strawmen arguments to make themselves feel superior to "lib s".

    It boggles my mind at how much you have to rely on logically unsound arguments to make the cases you do. You are smart, but seemingly unable to objectively analyze anything.

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