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C'mon now everyone knows that the C's were favored in 2008.
Thanks for the clarification Mogro.
C'mon now everyone knows that the C's were favored in 2008.
JamStone, Pierce may have outplayed Kobe in the 08 finals, but why did he outplay him?
Was he actually the better player in that series or were there other reasons? I can think of at least 3. What are your's?
The problem with Kobe fans is that they're always changing the criteria for the best player in the NBA..
If you've been on NBA message boards for a long time, this should be obvious to anybody..I've been on NBA forums since 2002, one of them being the most populated one in RealGM, and I can tell you that Al-Quobe is always changing the argument, depending on Kobe's role at the time..
In 2006, Kobe was apparently the best player in the NBA due to his scoring..I don't have a problem with this..personally, I thought Wade was the best, but I don't mind the Kobe argument..
In 2007, it was the same argument..despite Duncan leading a team to a le and dominating advanced metrics and +/- IIRC..despite Lebron having a dominant season, Kobe still had the media and casual fan edge due to his scoring..
Laker fans at this time always said winning and supporting cast is irrelevant, because Kobe can only do so much..I don't have a problem with this..
Following the Gasol trade, that's when things start getting iffy..the arguments changed, and now all of a sudden it's about rings and winning..the stats became irrelevant if you aren't winning..now the argument is centered around being clutch and mental edge, because those are the only things they can use in their arguments..
Kobe fans love to use arguments that can't be quantified..random NBA opinions, basketball IQ, mental edge, work ethic, determination and focus..and defense, since the stats aren't as advanced yet..they use these arguments because they don't have to back themselves up, it's just a bull way for arguing for somebody..
Kobe fan loved to use his stats in 2006 and 2007, because his scoring stats were his sole advantage in the argument..this hasn't been the case the past few years, so now they hate stats..
I just can't see any argument to be putting Kobe ahead of Lebron, especially since Kobe clearly hasn't been the best player on his team during the playoffs..
Also, Jamison is the 2nd most talented player on the Cavs..if you put him on the Lakers, he's behind Bynum and Odom without a doubt..
I think back at the time of the 2008 NBA Finals, Kobe was a better player than Paul Pierce. And after the NBA Finals, I still thought Kobe was the better player. However, for the actual NBA Finals, I think Paul Pierce outplayed Kobe and was the better player for that Finals series.
What were the reasons? Probably several. At the time, the talent might have been about even for the two teams, but Pierce had the better, more cohesive "team" around him. Kobe didn't fully trust his teammates and Gasol and Odom played like vaginas. Not every game, but Kobe had his moments in those Finals where he did go into Kobe mode. And I do think in the back of his mind, he was still concerned with winning that elusive Finals MVP and played for glory more than playing to make sure the Lakers actually won the le. That approach was partly to blame. But I would also say that the Celtics as a whole just played better than the Lakers as a hole.
You can add, amend, and delete those reasons as you wish. I don't really care either way what the reasons were, but Paul Pierce for that NBA Finals was a better player and outplayed Kobe.
I just noticed the asterisk on the 1st trophy
blah blah blah..at the end of the year, Kobe will have 5. Damn! thats more rings then the Spurs franchise.
So true man, that I couldn't have said better myself. Let's be clear, I ing hate LeCrab but there's no denying that he is the best player in the NBA and he has been since 2008.
One bad game and all of a sudden LeBron isn't as good as Kobe when Kobe had a couple awful games in the OKC series.
You know tha Kobe Haters are shakin in they boots with #5 looking more and more likely.
In 6 games here were their averages
Paul Pierce
21.83 PPG
43% FG (38/88)
29% 3FG(11/37)
4.6 RPG
6.8 APG
1.1 SPG
Kobe Bryant
24.00 PPG
44% FG (53/121)
48% 3FG (13/27)
4.8 RPG
4.0 APG
2.7 SPG
I just cant see how you can pull the Paul Pierce "outplayed" Kobe card on this one.
Of course he did not outplayed Kobe. I already showed the numbers. Pierce also logged the worst game between the two in that series (2/14, 6 pts. game 5 loss).
Pierce was also not even best player in game 6. Garnett, Allen and even Rondo had a bigger game than Paul.
kobe ain't winning without the size la has. Rings are something only hakeem in his prime gets without another allstar.
First of all, remember when you posted this in this very thread?
The numbers are similar but don't go Hollinger for your argument and rely simply on the stats. If you watched the games, you would know Pierce outplayed Kobe. It was evident. He also took on the challenge of guarding Kobe late in games. If you look only at the series stats, you could argue they played each other even. Having actually watched those NBA Finals, you wouldn't argue that at all.
Come on now. Who takes these people seriously when it comes to predictions? I remember a few years ago in RealGM and almost any other basketball fan(san die hard Laker fans) has Boston winning the le. There was no debate about it then.C'mon now everyone knows that the C's were favored in 2008.
43% FG (38/88) vs 44% FG (53/121)
Here is a key reason.
Kobe felt the need to be a hero, and put up more shots than he probably should have, which stalled the offense.
I mean, look at the disparity. Kobe averaged 24 PPG off roughly 20 shots per game.
Pierce averaged 21 PPG off 14 2/3 shots per game.
yah only 2 legit championships in the history of the NBA.
Are you really going to use that statement between Pierce and Kobe? That was specifically for Lebron's non effort showing in game 5.
I saw the games. All 6 of them. Every minute. Thats why I have a problem with your statement, without proving other than "Well, he did" excuse.
Pierce was a no show on Games 5 and 6. Kobe shot the ball slightly better. He scored more. Pierce racked higher assist numbers, but with LA's defense who would'nt.
Again, tell us how Pierce outplayed Kobe other than going by "I said so" at ude. That wont cut it.
You're clearly misrepresenting Paul Pierce's defense to that of the whole Celtics team who shut Kobe's offensive game plan all along. Pierces defense on Kobe was not evident. Boston's perfect execution however was.
One of the reasons Pierce was so good was because he was being guarded by Radmanovic because the Lakers best perimeter defender was too busy defending Eddie House or roaming off Rondo.
I don't care about the legitness. Kobe is an awesome player but, like mj, his game NEEDS a very good big defending and rebounding frontcourt, which is a limitation on the team (all the s who not remeber oakley and rodman cause of excessive jackoff to mj/pippen should give the idea some thought). This is basically applied to all guard who ever lived.yah only 2 legit championships in the history of the NBA.
As a center things are slightly different cause you impact the game alot more. As in you control the paint, you control who has the most possessions and easy basket opportunities. No need to add that this translates to rings.
LeBron is averaging 26.8ppg on a TS% of 56.5% along with 7.4rpg and 6.6apg while shutting down Paul Pierce defensively (or whoever he's defending)
In the first round, he went for 31.4ppg on a TS% of 66.8% along with 9.2rpg and 8.2apg.
LeBron has been the best player in this playoffs by far and away. He had a bad game yesterday but he had 4 equal or worse the last time he played the Cs in the playoffs.
Radmanovic, Walton and Ariza who came off a foot injury tried for a very, very short spurt. Im surprised Pierce did'nt shot better than that considering LA's defense was a freeway for any perimeter players who wishes to attack.
Wait so your reasoning is because Kobe shot more in the series therefore you conlcude that Pierce outplayed Kobe? Ever thought maybe because the Lakers needed Kobe to shoot more after Odom and Gasol had disappearing acts?
Last edited by RsxPiimp; 05-12-2010 at 03:55 PM.
That's why I said "probably" in the previous post. Pierce was more efficient at scoring points.
Would the Lakers have been better off if Kobe passed the rock more? It's arguable, I think. His teammates weren't doing great, but that doesn't mean that Kobe should just try to "get his". If they had better ball rotation they may have freed up players for better shots.
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