And yet you don't mention the accolades he gets across the board from the coaches, scouts, GM's, and players? You don't mention that to a man every player on the olympic team talked about how they learned to be a professional and were astonished at Kobe's work ethic. You always make light of those intangibles while tossing out your advanced stats BS. Those intangibles are every bit as important as PER.
And then when Kobe goes off, and your advanced stats don't cut it, it's about discrediting him with accolades for Pau etc. or your infantile rants about character flaws that have nothing to do with basketball.
The only one spewing the same over and over is you Harlem/Chris/Miami. I think everyone pretty much gets that you don't like the man. Yet I find it kind of odd how you can come to that conclusion as I would wager that you have never even talked to him much less met the guy.
And when the Lakers ring up #16 and Kobe gets the MVP.... that it really burns you will be pure icing!!!!
I have no problem with LBJ's game. I just commeted that your disappearing comment was unfounded. If that is the case, then the MVP of the series also did a disappearing act.
And please... are you seriously comparing Gasol in the 2008 finals to anyone? He was terrible and you know it. He was used and abused. Funny how Gasol is the next coming of Christ when people are comparing Kobe with others and the biggest softest vagina on the planet otherwise.
The disappearance act was the game 6.
Are you saying that any of LeBron's teammates are better than the '08 Gasol?
Non factor. Boston lost. I dont see how this game benefits Paul's case considering his teammates saved his behind in other games in this series. If anything this just proves my point that Pierce and his MVP Final accolade is debatable but that's another argument.
I also conviniently ignored Kobe's 36 point performance in Game 3 and did'nt really went into details about Pierce's 2/14, 6 point performance in the same game. Its also a conceivable argument, dont you think?
Pierce was'nt even the best player in Game 1 and he also laid his own egg in Game 3 and was easily the 4th best player in Game 6. Allen, Posey and Eddie House were the reason Boston stole game 4 away from Lakers. So really, arguing over which of these players had a worst game is moot. I already conceded that none of each player has really "outplayed" the other. I was sticking with my script that the Celtics not specifically Pierce's battle with Kobe triumphed over the Lakers, so to say that one is better than the other is just one's way of being stubborn.
Pierce shot worse.
You're overblowing Pierce's impact in the monumental collapse. The bench particularly Eddie House and James Posey were the real difference. KG also made some crucial shots and Ray Allen added the finishing touch to close the game in the 4th quarter. Pierce only made 1 FG in the 4th.
Why are penalizing Kobe for having a lower efficiency percentage? Considering the fact that Kobe always had poor shooting percentage in the Finals. Additionally, the defensive attention that Kobe received from Boston is not even up for a debate, in comparison to the defensive plan LA provided to Pierce. In hindsight, Kobe's average in that series is about right when acknowledging the elements involved.
The blowout win was more on Ray Allen's NBA Finals record of seven (7) 3 point field goals, KG finally having the best offensive game in the series 26 pts, 55% FG, and14 rebs and Rondo's 21 pts 8 asst game. James Poseys' 3/3 FG (11 pts) off the bench also crushed any hope Los Angeles had from ever getting back in the series.
Kobe had a better 1st quarter. Pierce caught up because of tacky fouls Boston received everytime he or any Boston player attacked the basket. He only had one FG and made 6 FT attempts.
I love how you slyly pointed out Kobe's three points were because of FT's while completely ignoring Pierce's 6 points came in the same manner though.
You name a "couple" of crucial possessions and somehow Pierce claims the credit for Kobe's less than stellar performance? Is this including the part where he obviously hacked Kobe's jersey and had the audacity to look at the ref for a foul?or is it his undeniable hand checking and flop? . Now, should I also point out that Kobe's game winning steal and break away dunk in game 5?
Listen, here's my take and Im not going to go further with this because both sides are not going to come into an amicable conclusion, which is expected. But Paul and Kobe both did'nt had a great series altogether, so to say that one outplayed the other is just ones way of being stubborn for the sake of disagreeing.
Celtics won because they were the better team, not because Paul Pierce and his sub 40% shooting is any better than Kobe's standard low of 40%.
Smh. I haven't been arguing against your reasons why Pierce was better. All I've said is that Pierce was better than Kobe in that series. Why don't you get that?
Pierce had a better team. That allowed him to play better than Kobe. That was a huge reason why he was a better player than Kobe in those Finals. What exactly are you arguing?
LeBron also played the '08 Celtics. Gave them the toughest series, was a PJ Brown jump-shot away from eliminating them, while surrounded by Wally World, Pavlovic and Joe Smith.
Playing the Lakers in the finals was a piece of cake compared to playing the Cavs in the 2nd round.
no... I'm saying all of them are
Gasol's play in 2008 finals was pathetic.
And anyone with any basketball sense at all knows Ray Allen was the true MVP of the Celts. It was given to Pierce because he was the celtic that had paid his dues over the years, the captain, and his wheelchair act. It's why i put very little credence in MVP's both regular season and playoffs. The only award that matters is winning the le. PERIOD!
Last edited by cobbler; 05-12-2010 at 09:41 PM.
Yeps, everybody sees that Jamison is playing better than Gasol in the 08 finals.
It's a mistake to take these guys seriously...
I stopped here, this is so ridiculous. Pierce shutting down Kobe in the 2nd half was the main reason why the Celtics won that game. He ended the game with 20 points in 13 shots, 7 assists and 4 rebounds and this guy is saying that House was better than him because he hit a few corner 3s that Pierce created?
Anyway, I've already read some re writing that Pierce only defended Kobe in the closing minutes of a game, so I guess everything is possible...
So, is Kobe still the best player in his own team?
Fish, rampaging thru SLC certainly gets a mention.
You should really stop. There's nothing obejective that comes out of your brain when Kobe's involved. We've been through this before.
KG was the best player in game 1. He had 24 points, 13 rebs, 3 asts and and set the tone defensively.
Are you serious that Pierce's game 5 doesn't matter because Boston lost? Are we now going to ignore Kobe's performances in games 1, 2, 4, and 6 because the Lakers lost? What kind of foolishness is that?
Pierce wasn't perfect. And he did have help from teammates. Let's get this out of the way from the start. I am not one who's arguing that he was absolutely the Finals MVP. I can understand an argument for Ray Allen. My discussion with you centers solely on the notion that Pierce outplayed Kobe, not whether he deserved the Finals MVP over any of his other teammates. That's an argument you are having with someone else.
Pierce was the best Celtics player in game 1. If you look only at the boxscore, you might argue that KG was better. But KG also crapped his pants in the 4th quarter. Up 4 points getting into crunchtime, KG misses two shots and the Lakers score at the other end. Boston calls timeout, Pierce gets back in the game and immediately scores 4 quick points and calms his team down. Pierce also took on Kobe at the defensive end and did a very good job. KG went 1-for-6 in the fourth quarter of game. Overall game statistics are better than Pierce's, but Pierce was the best player in game 1.Pierce was'nt even the best player in Game 1 and he also laid his own egg in Game 3 and was easily the 4th best player in Game 6. Allen, Posey and Eddie House were the reason Boston stole game 4 away from Lakers. So really, arguing over which of these players had a worst game is moot. I already conceded that none of each player has really "outplayed" the other. I was sticking with my script that the Celtics not specifically Pierce's battle with Kobe triumphed over the Lakers, so to say that one is better than the other is just one's way of being stubborn.
And for game 6, all you're doing is looking at boxscores. For you to even attempt to argue Eddie House was a more important player than Pierce is outrageous and ridiculous and you should just stopped arguing right there and then. That's tantamount to saying Sasha Vujacic was more important to the Lakers than Kobe in their game 3 win. It's simply ridiculous.
Pierce FG% for 2008 NBA Finals: 43.2%Pierce shot worse.
Kobe FG% for 2008 NBA Finals: 40.5%
Again, you're making the wrong argument. I'm arguing Pierce v. Kobe, not Pierce v. House v. KG. v. Allen. Keep that with the discussion you're having with whoever else. That's not what we're arguing.You're overblowing Pierce's impact in the monumental collapse. The bench particularly Eddie House and James Posey were the real difference. KG also made some crucial shots and Ray Allen added the finishing touch to close the game in the 4th quarter. Pierce only made 1 FG in the 4th.
Pierce outplayed Kobe in the second half of game 4, when it mattered, when Kobe's team was up and Pierce's team was fighting back from a 20+ point deficit.
I'm penalizing Kobe for having a lower efficiency percentage because that's something you evaluate when you compare player performances. If player A scores 20 points on 12 shots and player B scores 20 points on 20 shots, player A had a better scoring performance. Doesn't matter what the reasons are for Kobe shooting a lower percentage. Kobe didn't have a problem shooting good percentages in games 2 and 3 against that same Boston defense. So why not criticize his FG% in the other four games? Kobe shot less than 40% from the field in four of those games in the 2008 Finals. In three of them, he shot less than 35% from the field. It is something you can criticize a player for. If a team is playing that great a defense against you, don't shoot 20 FGA a game. Shooting that low and still putting up attempts instead of trying to find creative ways to get teammates involved is absolutely a criticism Kobe should take.Why are penalizing Kobe for having a lower efficiency percentage? Considering the fact that Kobe always had poor shooting percentage in the Finals. Additionally, the defensive attention that Kobe received from Boston is not even up for a debate, in comparison to the defensive plan LA provided to Pierce. In hindsight, Kobe's average in that series is about right when acknowledging the elements involved.
This proves you're just looking at boxscore numbers. Ray Allen made one three-pointer in the first half. The Celtics led the Lakers at halftime of game 6 by a score of 60-35. 25 point lead. Ray Allen made 6 of those 7 3-pointers when the lead was 25 points or greater. You're absurd to think the Celtics won game 6 because of Ray Allen hitting jumpers when the Celts were up by 30. Are you serious?The blowout win was more on Ray Allen's NBA Finals record of seven (7) 3 point field goals, KG finally having the best offensive game in the series 26 pts, 55% FG, and14 rebs and Rondo's 21 pts 8 asst game. James Poseys' 3/3 FG (11 pts) off the bench also crushed any hope Los Angeles had from ever getting back in the series.
Rajon Rondo had 4 points and 2 assists in the first half of game 6. He also stat padded in the blowout.
KG had a really nice first half and was a big reason for the game 6 win. And Posey hit some big shots. But again, you simply looked at the boxscore without getting context of the game stats. It's pretty apparent.
Kobe did have a better 1st quarter. The 1st quarter didn't determine the outcome of game 6. The second quarter where the Celtics outscored the Lakers 34-15 did. That's where Pierce outplayed Kobe. That's where the game was won.Kobe had a better 1st quarter. Pierce caught up because of tacky fouls Boston received everytime he or any Boston player attacked the basket. He only had one FG and made 6 FT attempts.
I love how you slyly pointed out Kobe's three points were because of FT's while completely ignoring Pierce's 6 points came in the same manner though.
I apologize for not including Pierce's FG/FGA. I was rushing out of work to go home and just wanted to hit post. Pierce went 1-for-3 from the field and yes got most of his points on free throws in that second quarter. And Pierce drew fouls to get his free throws. Kobe got his free throws from three illegal defense calls on Boston. Very different. Still was better than Kobe.
Kobe: 3 points, 0-for-4 from the field, 0 assists
Pierce: 8 points, 1-for-3 from the field, 6 assists
You tell me who outplayed whom in that game determining quarter.
Didn't claim Pierce was perfect on defense, but he did do a good job when he took on the challenge to guard Kobe late in a couple of those games. You can point out whatever you want to point out. A couple plays here and there that favor Kobe don't change the fact that over the course of the entire series, Pierce was the better player.You name a "couple" of crucial possessions and somehow Pierce claims the credit for Kobe's less than stellar performance? Is this including the part where he obviously hacked Kobe's jersey and had the audacity to look at the ref for a foul?
Having actually watched the 2008 NBA Finals unlike you just looking at the boxscores of each of those games, I can confidently and assuredly say Pierce outplayed Kobe for the 2008 NBA Finals.Listen, here's my take and Im not going to go further with this because both sides are not going to come into an amicable conclusion, which is expected. But Paul and Kobe both did'nt had a great series altogether, so to say that one outplayed the other is just ones way of being stubborn for the sake of disagreeing.
As I stated earlier, Pierce shot 43.2% from the field for the 2008 Finals. Kobe shot 40.2% from the field for those same Finals. You looked at the wrong stats page, bud. Or you looked at Pierce's 39.3% THREE POINT percentage.Celtics won because they were the better team, not because Paul Pierce and his sub 40% shooting is any better than Kobe's standard low of 40%.
Last edited by JamStone; 05-12-2010 at 10:57 PM.
What the heck does that have to do with game 4? Are you losing it?
Just caught this. I don't know how much this will change things for you, but at least I can identify part of the problem. You did poor math when you looked up the 2008 NBA Finals stats.
Actually helps Kobe in a couple areas but significantly changes the shooting percentages in favor of Pierce.
You really should double check your work if you're doing the math yourself. I thought you just went to nba.com, which would have been significantly easier:
http://www.nba.com/celtics/stats/200...als_stats.html
http://www.nba.com/lakers/stats/2007...als_stats.html
Why, because he faked an injury and shot 2 3 pointer in the 3rd quarter?
Boxscore or not, KG set the tone defensively. He was the better player IMO. He took Gasol and Odom out of their game completely. The buckets he made were just cherry on top. I never bought into Pierces' weak Willid Reed act, which obviously captivated you.
[/ How about his put back dunk over Gasol in the 4th which sealed the game with under 2 minutes left in the game that puts the Celtics up by 8?
Seriously what we're both doing here is finding loopholes to prove a point.
Stop stretching Jamstone, you aint Reed Richards.
You're really going to call me out on analyzing the game on boxscores when you clearly have no recollection of how the game exactly went down without looking at the same/similar source? How hypocritical is that?
I never implied Eddie House was a more important player than Pierce, wow. I mean I know you dug yourself a hole by putting your foot in this debate and is slowly trying to sneak away from it by completely fabricating statements I never said, but thats just really low on your part. Read and try again chief.
Pierce
38/88= 43% FG
11/37= 29% 3FG
Kobe
53/121=44% FG
13/27=48% 3FG
Actually you are. Im arguing Pierce did not have a better series because of all the factors involved. After all, there were 5 players for each team on the court. Never saw this as a 1 on 1 battle, thats why I never bought what your selling.
Also, mind you, I believe you agreed with that reasoning, just with another poster.
Pierce had a better team. That allowed him to play better than Kobe. That was a huge reason why he was a better player than Kobe in those Finals. What exactly are you arguing?
So, why exactly are you arguing?
You just said Pierce's team fought back. How did you come with this idea that Pierce outplayed Kobe?
So, you're going to penalize him for shooting 43% in the series when he shot worst in previous years.
Because Kobe is a streaky shooter? Always has been? And his numbers against Boston has never been good to begin with that year? That never crossed your mind, im baffled. A Kobe "fan" should know that by default.
You already admitted the fact that his teammates did'nt show up and has stated numerous times in this board that Gasol was a pussy pre 2009 NBA Finals. So, now since it comfortably favors your argument, Kobe should find creative ways to get his teammates involved. Your posts just dont add up at all.
Im serious that Garnett, Rondo, Allen were far more better players than Pierce in Game 6. Why you insist Pierce was the better player is seriously putting a big question mark on your dubious claim that you saw the game. Youtube clips included.
The night belonged to Garnett, Allen and even James Posey and P.J. Brown.
A night they'll never forget in Green Land might have belonged most to Rajon Rondo.
And Pierce did'nt? Pierce made only 2 FG's in the first half, the rest of his points were (5) FT's. You dont think Pierce had his share of stat padding in the second half?
"Rondo was the star," Lakers coach Phil Jackson told us after the Celtics Game 6.
KG and Posey were the reason the Lakers never recovered in the 1st half. Why are you turning your head and looking at the other way (Pierce).
Nope. Celtics won the game in the 4th. Game was tied up until the third quarter.
Disagree. Redundant. Semantics.
Ha! Of course.
Lets just put it this way. Stop your BS. You did'nt watch each and everygame to give a honest opinion on this matter.
21.83 PPG
43% FG (38/88)
29% 3FG(11/37)
4.6 RPG
6.8 APG
1.1 SPG
Kobe Bryant
24.00 PPG
44% FG (53/121)
48% 3FG (13/27)
4.8 RPG
4.0 APG
2.7 SPG
I did'nt. You did.
Your math is wrong.
Click the links I provided above.
I got my stats from a well known Laker poster at RealGM. Im glad you made the corrections though. Helped my case even more. Glad to know Kobe scored more and Pierce averaged slightly less assists per game.
Lol I won't even get into all of that now that you realized what you based parts of your argument on was your own bad math, but I have to, absolutely have to address this comment:
Since when is a 25 point halftime deficit comparable to being "tied up until the third?????"
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280617002
Pierce goes from a 29% three point shooter to a 39% three point shooter, and Kobe goes from a 44% field goal shooter and a 48 three point shooter to a 40% field goal shooter and 32% three point shooter and you're going to argue it helps your case even more?
Are you deranged?
Its late. I was referring to Game 1 in that post.
Well since were arguing over the tiniest detail of a decided game, a bump in scoring average and assist total and decreasing Pierce's assist per game helped dont you think?
Honestly? Seriously?
The differences in assists and scoring don't compare to the significant differences in those mistakes of the shooting percentages you posted. The mistakes in shooting percentage were very significant.
Significant? It was a difference of 0.040 and 0.160 in a low volume setting. It was misrepresented by more or less 10 shots spread on a 6 game series. Its not that critical, considering there are other issues you have'nt answered at this point. I already cknowledged the link you gave me. No point pushing the same issue again.
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