Poll: Most Americans support AZ immigration law

[z0sa]

I think there's a lot of good ideas floating, but again, the problem is Mexico, not big business hiring cheap labor. They do it all over the entire world to save a buck, just think how gleefully they hire local workers for the same price. Nothing will change that because there's too many people, too many companies, too many illegals, and the government would have to be nearly 100% socialist in order to have the wide sweeping capability to put a stop to it, on any level in any degree.

The only way to solve our illegal problem is to do it at the ground level - our cops and citizens gotta do the cleaning up. Sucks, because those guys and girls crossing over just want a better life. But at whose expense?

[rjv]

Link?



Link?



Link?

i would have figured you already knew that phoenix has changed laws in such a way that they have criminalized many aspects of illegal immigration that were not previously criminal.

"In 2006, Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio interpreted a state law making human smuggling a felony as also making it a crime to be smuggled, and he began prosecuting truckloads of illegal immigrants being transported through the state. Arpaio has made catching illegal immigrants a priority."

[Jack] Harris, the Phoenix police chief, who opposes SB 1070, said proponents of cracking down on illegal immigrants vastly overstated that population's criminality. "Saying that if you get rid of the illegal immigrants, you'll get rid of 80% of the crime, which I've heard, that's not true," he said, dismissing the rhetoric as political opportunism. "All you have to do in Arizona is come out with anything that's anti-immigrant and you will be in good shape in the polls." What most in law enforcement here do agree on is that the victims of crime by illegal immigrants tend to be other immigrants. ( http://mobile.latimes.com/inf/infomo...574&nopaging=1)

also, since phoenix is so close to the border it is an ideal place to locate "drop houses". this is where illegals are held by smugglers for ransom by coyotes working for cartels. (http://www.crimefreeaz.com/drophouses/ )

cartels often exploit the illegal immigrants by forcing them into economic bondage or pros ution, U.S. officials say. In recent years, illegal immigrants have been forced to pay exorbitant fees for being smuggled into the United States by the cartels’ networks of transportation, communications, logistics and financial operatives, according to officials.
Many more illegal immigrants are raped, killed or physically and emotionally scarred along the way, authorities say. Organized smuggling groups are stealing entire safe houses from rivals or trucks full of “chickens” -- their term for human cargo -- so they can resell them or exploit them further, according to these officials and do ents...

...The cartels began moving into human smuggling in the late 1990s, initially by taxing the coyotes as they led bands of a few dozen people across cartel-controlled turf near the border. After U.S. officials stepped up border enforcement after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, the price of passage increased and the cartels got more directly involved, using the routes they have long used for smuggling drugs north and cash and weapons south, authorities said.

Sometimes they loaded up their human cargo with backpacks full of marijuana. In many cases, they smuggled illegal immigrants between the two marijuana-growing seasons, authorities said...

...In Arizona, the cartels grossed an estimated $2 billion last year on smuggling humans, Goddard said. In recent years, the U.S. government has taken significant steps to go after illegal immigrant smugglers on a global scale, setting up task forces, launching public awareness campaigns and creating a Human Smuggling & Trafficking Center to fuse intelligence from various agencies.

But at the southern border, the effort has stumbled, in part because Homeland Security and various Justice Department agencies have overlapping responsibilities and are engaging in turf battles to keep them, Goddard and numerous other federal and state officials said.

(http://primebuzz.kcstar.com/?q=node/17768)

No entiendo?

what is not to understand? the point is that most of the crime committed by illegals is towards the illegals themselves. the more violent aspects are by the smugglers and the other felonies just by virtue of being an illegal in of itself.

50% of the illegal immigration is coming through Arizona. Easy to tell them what to do. Federal Government has failed here.

california, texas, florida, new york and illinois all have more illegals than arizona. in fact, california has 6 times as many and texas 4 times as many. arizona has 4 %. the federal government has failed on immigration reform but the blame is shared equally with the mexican government and corporate america. ( http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/s...ll_pe_2009.pdf)

it's not an innate trait. Are we still talking about the Arizona Law? You're way off in lala land.

no one ever mentioned genetics. and yes we are speaking of the arizona law.

if one makes an argument for immigration reform that argument will receive major opposition, from certain opponents of illegal immigration, because the impression would have been unfairly created that illegals are more bent on committing crimes here than they are in seeking employment. this is just not true.

[admiralsnackbar]

if one makes an argument for immigration reform that argument will receive major opposition, from certain opponents of illegal immigration, because the impression would have been unfairly created that illegals are more bent on committing crimes here than they are in seeking employment. this is just not true.

Agreed. It's both cheaper and more profitable, not to mention safer (legally speaking) to remain in MX.

Good post, man.

[z0sa]

the federal government has failed on immigration reform but the blame is shared equally with the mexican government and corporate america.

I don't disagree entirely, but it's time to stop blaming the Mexican government and do something about it. They can't stop drug cartels from overrunning well defended government buildings for chrissakes, and that's right across the border.

I don't mean send more troops on a specific mission (even though only God knows why we're fighting huge, costly wars abroad yet can't keep the homeland's borders secure and safe).

We need to end the war on drugs, legalize all (or many drugs), and tax the out of em. New cash cow, billions saved from the war being ended and many less prisoners. It's not this simple, but generally it's the best way to move forward as currently structured.

As for big business, they'll do anything to increase their profit margin. We know this. I can't support their standing, but I will support the principle behind it: money makes capitalism go. As long as there's more profit to be made, big business will do anything, anything. And since some businesses are deemed too large to fail, we should stop trying to even fix the problem from that end.

[admiralsnackbar]

The only way we're going to stem the flow of immigrants is to invest heavily in Mexican manufacturing and education/educational policy, and as Zosa mentioned, legalize drugs so that honest people can feel safe enough to work and study in their country.

The MX government has proven time and time again that it has no effective means of -- or interest in -- creating a stable, growing middle class, so the US needs to step up and grow that economy itself from the border down as much as through political proxies in the DF.

There are good reasons to do this besides alleviating illegal immigration, too -- it would widen the market for US goods, and perhaps even ultimately make our Southern neighbors better political allies.

But given we wouldn't see returns for at least a decade, and given our own economy is eating , I doubt this will be a popular position for the foreseeable future.

On the other hand, any overnight solution is necessarily fool's gold because it won't address the cause for the mass migration. Just like the war on drugs.

[TeyshaBlue]

If you stop hiring them they will stop coming. This notion that this problem can be solved overnight is stupid (see sisk) Once they get here and find a job the social services kick in (I am assuming). I am not naive to think that there aren't those who are here for social programs but the majority are here for jobs. I would create annual work visas that have to be renewed. Once you have had your visas renewed (theoretically) 5 times then you should at least have a shot at a pathway to citzenship. If you do not have a violent criminal history you should be able to work your way towards citzienship should you want it. This would include learning english and proving that you are accountable and dependable.


If you are caught more than once enering the country illegally you will forever lose the ability to work or live in the United States.

You know, that's a pretty good blueprint, GGA. I like the notion of work visas being renewed x number of times (5 seems a good number, btw) + a clean criminal record = entry to citizenship. I'm not sure about accountablitly and dependability metrics....that might be tough to quantize.
I think the kicker here is that the visa renewal method you suggest is predicated on a belief that citizenship is the goal of the avg. illegal worker. I'm not sure that's necessarily the case but I can't refute the notion one way or the other.
Regardless, your method seems to be more coherent than the Federal response.

[MiamiHeat]

primarily, all of this backlash is because of the economy.

when we prospered, everyone was kumbaya.

now that everyone has been hit hard in the wallet, off with everyone's mother ing heads! mexicans, wall street, corporations, politicians!

[2centsworth]

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/vi...er-crime-15297

for being so smart you sure have no ideas of your own. Tell me what you think and back it up. Don't just post propaganda and expect me to blindly believe that crap like you do. Break it down in your own words and stop hiding behind other peoples opinion. Not much different than plagiarism.

[jack sommerset]

for being so smart you sure have no ideas of your own. Tell me what you think and back it up. Don't just post propaganda and expect me to blindly believe that crap like you do. Break it down in your own words and stop hiding behind other peoples opinion. Not much different than plagiarism.

Get ready for some spam.

[NFGIII]

The only way we're going to stem the flow of immigrants is to invest heavily in Mexican manufacturing and education/educational policy, and as Zosa mentioned, legalize drugs so that honest people can feel safe enough to work and study in their country.

I don't think it's the only way but your solution has merit. But the Mexican culture - the rich and powerful - are going to have to "evolve" for this to have any long term effect. Imagine the USA doing this and the Mexican government runnig the show. The corruption and graft would be enormous, similar to when they nationalized the banks years ago. After the second audit several months later the balance sheet was hundreds of miilions in the red and the money was nowhere to be found. Imagine that!

If they only were to have a say in it in the capacity of consultants and auditors - it is their country - then expect to endure lots of haggling, ing, moaning an groaning. Too much money involved for them not to want to get their "fair share", which usually means almost all of it.

As for the legalization of drugs maybe we can experiment along the lines that the Dutch employ now.

The MX government has proven time and time again that it has no effective means of -- or interest in -- creating a stable, growing middle class, so the US needs to step up and grow that economy itself from the border down as much as through political proxies in the DF.

This has been going on before it was called Mexico. The rich and the church have been in bed with one another from the get go. They have no want or need ot include anyone who doesn't already belong to their small elitist club.

There are good reasons to do this besides alleviating illegal immigration, too -- it would widen the market for US goods, and perhaps even ultimately make our Southern neighbors better political allies.

But given we wouldn't see returns for at least a decade, and given our own economy is eating , I doubt this will be a popular position for the foreseeable future.

On the other hand, any overnight solution is necessarily fool's gold because it won't address the cause for the mass migration. Just like the war on drugs.

Agreed. It would be in the best interest of this country to make a more profitable and stable Mexico. But as noted above this is ognng to take a long time and there will have to be consessions made on the part of the upper class. Concessions that at this time I don't think they will want to make.

As for politicans making that kind of committment in the face of a bad economy I think it would take a courageous and persuasive person to pull it off. Tough choices call for tough people. Who steps up is the question.

And overnight solutions are just bandaids. This is going to take a lot of effort, money and people working together to fix this. But regardless of how you view the AZ bill at least somebody has finally taken action that might result in changing the staus quo. Our federal laws have essentialy not been enforced and this issue has been viewed more of as a nuisance rather than a possible threat to our country. Maybe this will stimulate some real dialogue about what to really do and a lead towards better solutions.

[ElNono]

In Trenton, issuing IDs for illegal immigrants

Interesting article. One noteworthy excerpt from it:

A few states, including New Mexico and Washington, allow illegal immigrants to obtain driver’s licenses, but the number has fallen as more states require proof of lawful presence in the country.

[admiralsnackbar]

I don't think it's the only way but your solution has merit. But the Mexican culture - the rich and powerful - are going to have to "evolve" for this to have any long term effect. Imagine the USA doing this and the Mexican government runnig the show. The corruption and graft would be enormous, similar to when they nationalized the banks years ago. After the second audit several months later the balance sheet was hundreds of miilions in the red and the money was nowhere to be found. Imagine that!

If they only were to have a say in it in the capacity of consultants and auditors - it is their country - then expect to endure lots of haggling, ing, moaning an groaning. Too much money involved for them not to want to get their "fair share", which usually means almost all of it.

As for the legalization of drugs maybe we can experiment along the lines that the Dutch employ now.




This has been going on before it was called Mexico. The rich and the church have been in bed with one another from the get go. They have no want or need ot include anyone who doesn't already belong to their small elitist club.



Agreed. It would be in the best interest of this country to make a more profitable and stable Mexico. But as noted above this is ognng to take a long time and there will have to be consessions made on the part of the upper class. Concessions that at this time I don't think they will want to make.

As for politicans making that kind of committment in the face of a bad economy I think it would take a courageous and persuasive person to pull it off. Tough choices call for tough people. Who steps up is the question.

And overnight solutions are just bandaids. This is going to take a lot of effort, money and people working together to fix this. But regardless of how you view the AZ bill at least somebody has finally taken action that might result in changing the staus quo. Our federal laws have essentialy not been enforced and this issue has been viewed more of as a nuisance rather than a possible threat to our country. Maybe this will stimulate some real dialogue about what to really do and a lead towards better solutions.

First off: thanks for not laughing me out. I think you make many fine points, and you're right to question the absolutist stance I took in my argument -- it will take more than my simplistic solution to solve anything. Anyway, for brevity's sake, I will only address what I disagree with.

+The Mexican elite enjoy and protect their colonial lifestyle, but they're also fiercely compe ive with each other. I believe their greed and vanity can be exploited to undermine their culturally atavistic attachments to oligarchy by offering them new profit streams. If you can demonstrate why developing a middle class will actually behoove their business interests, they will support you. They're more interested with being rich than they are with being powerful, if that makes sense. They're global citizens and want to shine at that level more than on the MX stage.

+Graft in MX politics has to be taken as a given, not something we would create or enhance with American investment. By the same token, this same in-born graft would make it much easier to infiltrate Mexican politics than you suggest (Chavez had middling success trying to alter MX politics in 2006, and he was both cheap and heavy-handed. The CIA has the ability and means to be much more subtle). Moreover, it would be easy to sell American interests in Mexico because they would initially enrich the oligarchs.

+One of the few things Mexico has done right is separate Church from State (I'm happy to elaborate if you're curious). Most Mexicans are Catholic, but the Church has a surprisingly limited effect on politics compared to the US.

[NFGIII]

First off: thanks for not laughing me out. I think you make many fine points, and you're right to question the absolutist stance I took in my argument -- it will take more than my simplistic solution to solve anything. Anyway, for brevity's sake, I will only address what I disagree with.

It's a discussion board so throw things out and see what happens. The free flow of ideas and information only helps to enlighten us all. Or at least those who come and discuss with an open mind.

+The Mexican elite enjoy and protect their colonial lifestyle, but they're also fiercely compe ive with each other. I believe their greed and vanity can be exploited to undermine their culturally atavistic attachments to oligarchy by offering them new profit streams. If you can demonstrate why developing a middle class will actually behoove their business interests, they will support you. They're more interested with being rich than they are with being powerful, if that makes sense. They're global citizens and want to shine at that level more than on the MX stage.

Point taken but so far they haven't wanted to encourage one. For all their education and worldly views they still hold onto their status and don't seem to care about sharing it with others. I believe as you do that it would be in their best interest to do so but do they/will they? So far the verdict is no. And this kind of change sometimes comes with a high price tag and due to cir stances beyound their control.

+Graft in MX politics has to be taken as a given, not something we would create or enhance with American investment. By the same token, this same in-born graft would make it much easier to infiltrate Mexican politics than you suggest (Chavez had middling success trying to alter MX politics in 2006, and he was both cheap and heavy-handed. The CIA has the ability and means to be much more subtle). Moreover, it would be easy to sell American interests in Mexico because they would initially enrich the oligarchs.

Yeah, money talks and you know what walks. I tend to agree that pandering to their basic greed would be the quickest way to make inroads.
But that becomes a tricky situation when you involve the CIA. I'm not the naive type that doesn't understand it's past involvement in the politics of other countries, the Shah and Iran, Allende and Chile just to name o few, but I'd wish for another type of fulcrum rather than that one. But we will use what we have and it has proven to be effective.

+One of the few things Mexico has done right is separate Church from State (I'm happy to elaborate if you're curious). Most Mexicans are Catholic, but the Church has a surprisingly limited effect on politics compared to the US.

Go for it. I'd be interested in knowing when the Vatican lost it's hold. From the beginning they have been heavy handed in Catholic nations to the detriment of the majority of those citizens. Not saying they became evil incarnate but you know the old saying about power and corruption. c

[Winehole23]

for being so smart you sure have no ideas of your own. Tell me what you think and back it up. Don't just post propaganda and expect me to blindly believe that crap like you do. Break it down in your own words and stop hiding behind other peoples opinion. Not much different than plagiarism.

You mean like you did upstream when your stats were challenged? LOL.

I posted it for contrast. There's a difference of opinion about the relationship of illegal immigrants and crime. People who immigrate to work here have powerful incentives not to break the law, and some studies back that up.

I also think it's reasonable to point out, like the Commentary article does, that part of the problem is the onerousness of (the requirements) of legality, which makes illegality a more attractive path for many. Make the legal pathway easier, and more people will choose it.

[Winehole23]

Don't just post propaganda and expect me to blindly believe that crap like you do.

Like you blindly believed and hid behind a Joe Arpaio press release?

Too funny, 2 cents.

[Winehole23]

My links were posted as contrast to yours, for anyone who might be interested enough to read. I find them just slightly more persuasive than a Maricopa Co. press release.

[2centsworth]

My links were posted as contrast to yours, for anyone who might be interested enough to read. I find them just slightly more persuasive than a Maricopa Co. press release.

the press release wasn't my opinion, it just contained statistics that I had posted. You on the other hand have no opinion, because you're not much of a thinker.

continue to allow other to do your talking for you

[Winehole23]

the press release wasn't my opinion, it just contained statistics that I had posted.

I posted statistics too, but somehow that makes me a moron and a coward. Interesting.

You on the other hand have no opinion, because you're not much of a thinker.

Eh, I wasn't counting on your approval. I'll get by somehow.

[Winehole23]

What you cannot correct you can at least insult, eh?

[Winehole23]

I'd be interested in knowing when the Vatican lost it's hold.

During and after the fiercely anti-clerical Mexican Revolution. It's written into the law in a number of ways. For example, RC clergy cannot make legally binding marriages in MX. Only state magistrates have that power.

[George Gervin's Afro]

the press release wasn't my opinion, it just contained statistics that I had posted. You on the other hand have no opinion, because you're not much of a thinker.

continue to allow other to do your talking for you

you always provide a great laugh with your nonsense..

[Yonivore]

Has anyone in the Obama administration even bothered to read the law they're running around the world condemning?

[admiralsnackbar]

During and after the fiercely anti-clerical Mexican Revolution. It's written into the law in a number of ways. For example, RC clergy cannot make legally binding marriages in MX. Only state magistrates have that power.

I apologize for not having the time to adapt the ideas in this article to the conversation at hand, but this article is a quick expansion of Wino's post and would make a good starting-point for further investigation if there's interest.

http://mexfiles.net/2010/04/20/bisho...-cant-hurt-us/

Tangentially, I highly recommend this site for anybody interested in MX politics and culture.

[Winehole23]

Much appreciated, AS.

[rjv]

one of the problems is that the causes for the exponential rise in illegal immigration to the US over the past decade and a half are practically irreversible. for one, neoliberal trade policies have resulted in trade agreements such as NAFTA that essentially expedited the mass exodus from mexico into the US that we have seen since the mid 90's.

mexico has become an export-dependent economy, but this has not benefited most Mexicans. mexican manufacturing is based on a production model in which component parts are imported, then processed or assembled and then re-exported. the spillover effect of such operations on the broader economy is very limited.

ironically, one might argue that illegal migration is the only thing saving mexico from the ravages of NAFTA. illegal migration serves as an important safety valve. in the past 10 years, mexico's working-age population has expanded by about 1 million per year, but the number of jobs has expanded by only half as much. so the annual exodus of 500,000 to 1 million Mexicans reduces labor unrest inside the country.
but migration serves another even more important function: national financial safety net.

in 2005, mexicans in the US remitted some $20 billion home, about 3 percent of mexico's national income, according to a march story by knight ridder's washington bureau. according to that report, remittances now exceed tourism, oil and the maquiladoras as the country's top single source of foreign exchange.

NAFTA boasted that trade, not aid, would boost the lot of mexico and mexicans. ironically, the only thing that is keeping mexico afloat is aid from the US, via mexicans living in the united states, not trade.