Whitlock slams Amare, Howard...

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

You've got it figured out surely you would know their averages in today's game. Please, please tell me, I've been wondering about this for years.

Russell would average around what Ben Wallace averaged with less rebounds.

[midnightpulp]

We also malign players who get by on superior athletic advantages and who wouldn't be without those physical gifts. Russell, in spite of his physical advantages, was a role player. I find it dumb Russell, a role player, is talked about by some as a top 10 player of all time.

But Russell also had pure basketball skills outside of his athleticism. Still the best passing big man I've seen. His passes to trigger fast breaks are a thing of beauty. He didn't have a polished offensive game but could do everything else well on a basketball court.

Do you think Amare is a role player? Amare has no basketball skills outside his athleticism and a decent mid-range J. Yet the guy is a star.

And Russell is faster than Amare, a better jumper, passer, defender with a way higher Bball IQ. Pair Russell with Nash and a pick and roll between those would be even deadlier than it is now.

Phoenix would be leading this series if you replaced Amare with Russell. Russell would limit Gasol and/or shut Odom's down. He would also be able to trigger fast breaks off defensive rebounds, getting Hill and J-Rich some easy points, unlike Amare who can only hand it off to Nash.

But the "modern day" player Amare is a first team center and Russell is only a role player.

[Booharv]

Russell would average around what Ben Wallace averaged with less rebounds.

Oh, thank God. Finally its settled. Now I can get on to wondering about other things. Thanks.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Phoenix would be leading this series if you replaced Amare with Russell.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

All I know is Amare could do a lot better than 15 PPG on 44% shooting if Dolph Schayes was guarding him.

[Booharv]

All I know is Amare could do a lot better than 15 PPG on 44% shooting if Dolph Schayes was guarding him.

Yeah he might even average 50 ppg and then 40 years later some random kid on the internet who thinks he has it all figured out could call him a role player.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Yeah he might even average 50 ppg and then 40 years later some random kid on the internet who thinks he has it all figured out could call him a role player.

In 1972, Wilt had to take a backseat to West and Goodrich and ride them to a le. Pretty pathetic for someone who could have easily been the best player of all time.

[Booharv]

Actually I think I got you confused with the other guy. I feel this conversation is making me dumber. I'm gonna stop now.

[midnightpulp]

Nice way to leave the rest of my post.

Now answer me this:

Is Amare a better athlete than Russell?
Is Amare a better defender than Russell?
Is Amare a better passer than Russell?
Is Amare a better rebounder than Russell?
Does Amare have a higher bball IQ than Russell?

If you have Russell on these Suns, Odom doesn't kill you guys the way he has been, and Odom has been the main difference in the series thus far. Russell would even be able to guard Kobe in stretches.

But the Dolph Schayes thing again, nice. And about Russell's FG%. You do realize he's was in among the top 5 FG% leaders in 6 different seasons? Back then, you knock a player's head off and it wouldn't be a foul.

But go ahead, keep on talking about things you nothing about, kid.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

If Russell is on the Suns yeah their defense is a little better but their offense blows serious with no half court threat at all.

[Giuseppe]

Duncan, yer gettin' your booty hole loosened.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

But go ahead, keep on talking about things you nothing about, kid.

The hilarious thing about this is I'm willing to bet Russell was retired whenever you were born, you're just arguing right now to sound like a basketball purist.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Duncan, yer gettin' your booty hole loosened.

I could care less. I just find the butthurt responses "Bill Russell was overrated as " gets hilarious.

[LnGrrrR]

The Bill Russell knob slobbing is hilarious. Dwight Howard would have average 30 rebounds a game against the 6'5" honkies Russell played against. By far the most overrated player of all time.

IIRC, he played Wilt Chamberlain pretty well.

[midnightpulp]

The hilarious thing about this is I'm willing to bet Russell was retired whenever you were born, you're just arguing right now to sound like a basketball purist.

Not all. Being a Spurs fan, I appreciate team play, basketball IQ, and defense. Those attributes win games and championships and it's something that Russell embodied.

He didn't have the greatest offensive game, but it was his choice to never develop one. Quote Russell:

"At that time," he has said, "it was never acceptable that a black player was the best. That did not happen...My junior year in college, I had what I thought was the one of the best college seasons ever. We won 28 out of 29 games. We won the National Championship. I was the MVP at the Final Four. I was first team All American. I averaged over 20 points and over 20 rebounds, and I was the only guy in college blocking shots. So after the season was over, they had a Northern California banquet, and they picked another center as Player of the Year in Northern California. Well, that let me know that if I were to accept these as the final judges of my career I would die a bitter old man." So he made a conscious decision, he said, to put the team first and foremost, and not worry about individual achievements.[14]

I just don't understand why you believe that an athletic freak like Russell who was a great passer, had great defensive fundamentals, and was feared by the opposition would just be "role player" in today's game. Dwight Howard is way more limited than Russell and is a top 3 MVP candidate.

And Russell, in today's NBA culture, would develop an offensive game.

[Findog]

Bill Russell had all the physical advantages in the world during his era and he was a mediocre offensive player

No, he wasn't. He has career averages of 15 points and 24 boards a game. If he wanted to score 30 a game, he could have.

Put a 21 year old Russell in a time machine, bring him to the present day and give him all the conditioning, training and coaching available in the modern sports world and he'd still be an elite player.

[Findog]

Nice way to leave the rest of my post.

Now answer me this:

Is Amare a better athlete than Russell?
Is Amare a better defender than Russell?
Is Amare a better passer than Russell?
Is Amare a better rebounder than Russell?
Does Amare have a higher bball IQ than Russell?

If you have Russell on these Suns, Odom doesn't kill you guys the way he has been, and Odom has been the main difference in the series thus far. Russell would even be able to guard Kobe in stretches.

But the Dolph Schayes thing again, nice. And about Russell's FG%. You do realize he's was in among the top 5 FG% leaders in 6 different seasons? Back then, you knock a player's head off and it wouldn't be a foul.

But go ahead, keep on talking about things you nothing about, kid.

Fg% back then was way worse. Russell was a good, not great, offensive player in his time.

[Findog]

That's what Russell was, a defensive role player. A glorified Dikembe Mutumbo.

Best player on 11 championship teams.

He certainly wasn't a "role player" in his day, and wouldn't be a role player today.

[midnightpulp]

No, he wasn't. He has career averages of 15 points and 24 boards a game. If he wanted to score 30 a game, he could have.

Put a 21 year old Russell in a time machine, bring him to the present day and give him all the conditioning, training and coaching available in the modern sports world and he'd still be an elite player.

NP.

I don't know why the posters who denigrate Russell can't grasp that fact.

Russell had anywhere from a 45 to 50" vertical. Was a world class high-jumper and 440 sprinter. A 1964 Russell (without the training technology and modern conditioning and diet regiments that today's players benefit from) is a better athlete than 90% of today's players. Give him all those modern benefits and he's likely up there with Lebron as the best athlete in the league. That's why the Ben Wallace, Dennis Rodman comparisons are crap. Russell was a far superior athlete than them.

If one-dimensional Amare Stoudemire can be a star today, Russell can't?

[Findog]

I've always heard he was 6'10". All I know is he shoulda been able to average more than 15.0 PPG at 44% shooting.

15 ppg on 44% shooting was very good back then. His focus wasn't scoring anyways. Dwight Howard is a great player without being an offensive force.

Russell was a great player in the era in which he played. If you try to deny that, you're an idiot. And if you're suggesting that he couldn't be more than a "defensive role player" today with his athleticism and access to modern training methods, you're an idiot.

[Edward]

I just got off the phone with DoK, and he's more than happy that someone who thinks Carl Landry > Amare Stoudemire also thinks he's an idiot. He'd actually be worried if that person called him smart.

[poop]

im sure Russell had a great bbiq and was a great defender and leader. he deserves tons of credit for what he achieved.

man stats back then were WAY inflated.

i mean, Dr.J - a 6-6 shooting guard- averaged over 15 rebounds a game his rookie year

in this modern era Russell would put up

10-14 ppg
10-11 rpg
1.5 bpg
4 asp

still solid numbers

wilt would do

25 ppg
10-12 rbpg

still solid numbers but 50 and 25?? oh brother give me a break.

[monosylab1k]

I really don't get the whole "if he trained like a modern athlete" angle. It makes zero sense imho.

You take a player as what he is regardless of the era he played. It's pointless to say "if he trained like a modern athlete" because he didn't. So throw all that out. I could very easily say "If Shaq played against a bunch of 6-5 white guys he could average 50/20 every season" but that makes no sense either. Take the player as exactly what he was.

Bill Russell as Bill Russell in today's game is a rich man's Marcus Camby. Hardly a player that sucks, but nowhere near the elite player he was playing against 6-5 honkeys.

[midnightpulp]

im sure Russell had a great bbiq and was a great defender and leader. he deserves tons of credit for what he achieved.

man stats back then were WAY inflated.

i mean, Dr.J - a 6-6 shooting guard- averaged over 15 rebounds a game his rookie year

in this modern era Russell would put up

10-14 ppg
10-11 rpg
1.5 bpg
4 asp

still solid numbers

wilt would do

25 ppg
10-12 rbpg

still solid numbers but 50 and 25?? oh brother give me a break.

Are we talking about 1960s Bill Russell or are we assuming that Bill Russell hops in a time machine, transports himself to today, and enjoys all the modern coaching, conditioning, and training benefits?

1960s Russell would probably average those numbers. If you pair him with a great point guard like Nash or Kidd, he likely averages over 20. Not one big today would be able to keep up with Russell in a pick and roll. Prime Garnett would be the only one with a shot. Maybe Howard.

Now if Russell works hard to develop his offensive game, you'd have a more athletic version of Karl Malone. Russell would be a terror running the floor and would be able to take opposing bigs off the dribble. He also get a good number of junk points off putbacks and the like. If he's able to develop a post game and a jumper, all the better.

[Edward]

Bill Russell had 3 or more HoFers other than him on all of his championship teams, and most of his championships came when there were like 7 other teams in the league. Props to him for winning 11 championships in an 8 team league with a team that didn't need any offense from him. His job was to grab rebounds and throw outlet passes to great offensive players like Bill Sharman and Bob Cousy, just like it was Dikembe Mutumbo's job in 2001 to grab rebounds and pass the ball to Allen Iverson.