How would a prime Olajuwon fare against a prime Duncan?

[jdev82]

i know i havent been watching basketball religiously that long, since 94, but duncan 1999-2003 is the best player i have ever seen. ever.

[ChrisRichards]

i know i havent been watching basketball religiously that long, since 94, but duncan 1999-2003 is the best player i have ever seen. ever.

If you saw Olajuwon in 94-96 you would'nt say that.

[ambchang]

I watched pretty much all of the playoffs from 1990 to current day except for some of the obvious mismatch series. Hakeem had some awful teammates in 1993-94. There were some good defensive role players on that team but no one at all who could reliably create their shot other than Hakeem. Maxwell was by far the #2 option and he averaged over 13 fga's per game and shot unbelievably bad from the field. Like record breaking bad. No one else averaged double digit fga's per game. And if you remember that time at all any time Hakeem went out of the game that team was ugly to watch. They basically swung it around the perimeter until someone jacked up a contested jumper. Or threw it in to Thorpe who was a mechanical post player.

Cassell could create his offense pretty much as a rookie, Kenny Smith could make a few shots here and there, and yeah, the team looks ugly on offense when Hakeem is out because the whole offense was geared towards that one player.

94 and 95 Rockets team are the definition of total more than the sum of its parts. Each player had a very defined role, and they did that very well. It was the first team to master the inside-out offense by taking advantage of the 3-pt line (later followed by the Shaq Lakers and Duncan Spurs).

Maxwell shot a horrible percentage, but when he catches fire, he makes incredibly difficult shots. That's why he was called Mad Max, he can be a total liability one time, and a monster the next. Players like Mario Elie, Maxwell, Horry and such are absolute defensive hounds, and were even more effective back in the hand-check days.

Outside of Hakeem, the 94 Rockets team had 4 double digit scorer, and Elie and Horry averaging more than 9 points. That was a very balanced team that can hurt you in more ways than one.

Of course, those teammates all depend on defense double teaming Hakeem, but these are players who can nail down open shots during crunch time.

It's like saying 03 Duncan had horrible teammates because the 2nd option is a 2nd year Parker who wilted under pressure and had Kerr and Claxton replace him during crunch time, and a crazy unreliable Jackson firing up shots and shots. But of course anybody who saw the Spurs play would know how Robinson defended the paint along with Duncan (like Thorpe with Hakeem), how Jackson nailed clutch shots during crunch time (like Maxwell did), and how Claxton and Kerr came up big during the most unexpected moments (like Horry, Cassell and Elie did)

[Capt Bringdown]

Simmons makes one of his greatest "what ifs" in NBA history what if the 1986 Rockets hadn't fallen apart due to drug use and Sampson's injuries. He argues they were the Lakers kryptonite and the Sampson turnaround shot made the series seem like a Cinderella story when they really beat the Lakers brains out.

A player or two here, and a break or two there, and we'd be talking about the Olujawon instead of the Jordan era.

[Booharv]

Cassell could create his offense pretty much as a rookie, Kenny Smith could make a few shots here and there, and yeah, the team looks ugly on offense when Hakeem is out because the whole offense was geared towards that one player.

94 and 95 Rockets team are the definition of total more than the sum of its parts. Each player had a very defined role, and they did that very well. It was the first team to master the inside-out offense by taking advantage of the 3-pt line (later followed by the Shaq Lakers and Duncan Spurs).

Maxwell shot a horrible percentage, but when he catches fire, he makes incredibly difficult shots. That's why he was called Mad Max, he can be a total liability one time, and a monster the next. Players like Mario Elie, Maxwell, Horry and such are absolute defensive hounds, and were even more effective back in the hand-check days.

Outside of Hakeem, the 94 Rockets team had 4 double digit scorer, and Elie and Horry averaging more than 9 points. That was a very balanced team that can hurt you in more ways than one.

Of course, those teammates all depend on defense double teaming Hakeem, but these are players who can nail down open shots during crunch time.

It's like saying 03 Duncan had horrible teammates because the 2nd option is a 2nd year Parker who wilted under pressure and had Kerr and Claxton replace him during crunch time, and a crazy unreliable Jackson firing up shots and shots. But of course anybody who saw the Spurs play would know how Robinson defended the paint along with Duncan (like Thorpe with Hakeem), how Jackson nailed clutch shots during crunch time (like Maxwell did), and how Claxton and Kerr came up big during the most unexpected moments (like Horry, Cassell and Elie did)

Duncan's teammates were pretty mediocre in 03. Some very good defenders, but Kerr had to come off the bench as a 30-whatever year old fossil, who admitted openly he couldn't guard anybody, to hit wide open jumpers because Duncan's teammates were visibly terrified taking wide open shots and were clanging them all over the place. I think you're falling into the same trap that a lot of sports GMs fall into, over-rating role players because they were on a championship team. Plus you shouldn't be counting Jent as a double figure scorer he only played in 24 games and averaged like 5 ppg in the playoffs. Cassell averaged 9.4 ppg on sub 39% shooting in the playoffs, and Mad Max shot 37% in the playoffs. Keep in mind I'm just using these stats to back up my memories, Cassell didn't emerge at all as a player that impressed me until 1995-96 and at that point, I felt he was kind of competing with Hakeem and Clyde for shots which I think hurt that team a bit.

[djohn2oo8]

A player or two here, and a break or two there, and we'd be talking about the Olujawon instead of the Jordan era.

I know hindsight is 20/20, but man what would have been with Jordan and Hakeem on the same team

[Roxsfan]

Hakeem would have embarrassed Duncan the way he did D. Rob. God, Hakeem was so freaking talented and clutch, it's not even funny.

[Shastafarian]

Hakeem had good teammates? What a lousy argument. Let's see the argument for his awesome teamates from the 1993-94 Rockets roster:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/HOU/1994.html

No one averaging more than 14.0 ppg, Maxwell #2 option (Thorpe scored more points but a ton of those were from putbacks) drilling it at 38.9% from the floor and 29.8% from the 3 point land. Something called Chris Gent was their 4th leading scorer in the 24 games he played at 10.4 ppg. 2 guys besides Hakeem who played in more than 24 games averaged in double figures. Casell averaged 6 ppg in his rookie year. Ultra scrubs Scott Brooks and Carl Herrera are rotation players. Horry and Elie don't break 10 ppg or crack 30 minutes.

Tons of problems. The glass ain't half empty it's got a ing quarter sized hole in the bottom of it.

First of all 3 other guys averaged double figures but whatever.

It's funny how full of you are. Thorpe averaged 10.6 rebounds in 35 minutes a game. He shot 56% from the floor. Kenny Smith shot 48% from the floor but only played 28 minutes a game. He and Maxwell averaged 9 assists per game. In 2003 Duncan averaged 12.9 RPG. The next closest was David Robinson at 7.9. Only one other player averaged more than 4 RPG (Malik Rose). How about on offense? Tony Parker was the second leading scorer at 15.5 PPG on 46%. The only other players who averaged better than 47% shooting were Kevin Willis (11.8 MPG) and Devin Brown (3.1 MPG in 7 games). Hakeem had 3 teammates (all playing over 16 MPG) shoot over 48%. So if Hakeem's teammates sucked in 93/94, Duncan was playing all by himself.

But you mean Sam wasn't the Sam I grew up watching with the bucks when he was in Houston?

Well .. there goes my argument.. but they had Mad Max!! and Sleepy Floyd!!

Good analysis Maybe if you took Booharv's our of your mouth for a second, you'd actually look up for yourself.

[Shastafarian]

How the did Olajuwon "fall off a cliff"

The guy at the age of 36 put up 19pp, 9.6rpb, and 2.5bpg....which is better than what Duncan did at 33 (now give me the "per" )

His body fell off a cliff. Was I not clear when I used the games played numbers?

I hate to tell you this, but once big men fall they tend to fall fast. Give a alltime great props for lasting as long as he did, which is MUCH longer than Duncan will ever last.

Hakeem lasted longer but Duncan still has more MVPs, Finals MVPS, les, All-NBA First Teams, and All-Defensive First Teams. Oh and you're basing that off of knowing the future

Well did Robinson not play second fiddle to Duncan?

I might be wrong but I think Hakeem played with Ralph Sampson from 1985-1987 in which Sampson was an All-Star each year. Nope...I'm not wrong.

[Booharv]

First of all 3 other guys averaged double figures but whatever.

It's funny how full of you are. Thorpe averaged 10.6 rebounds in 35 minutes a game. He shot 56% from the floor. Kenny Smith shot 48% from the floor but only played 28 minutes a game. He and Maxwell averaged 9 assists per game. In 2003 Duncan averaged 12.9 RPG. The next closest was David Robinson at 7.9. Only one other player averaged more than 4 RPG (Malik Rose). How about on offense? Tony Parker was the second leading scorer at 15.5 PPG on 46%. The only other players who averaged better than 47% shooting were Kevin Willis (11.8 MPG) and Devin Brown (3.1 MPG in 7 games). Hakeem had 3 teammates (all playing over 16 MPG) shoot over 48%. So if Hakeem's teammates sucked in 93/94, Duncan was playing all by himself.

Lol, at childishly cursing and stating I'm full of as an integral part of your argument. You know you're winning an argument when frustration like that happens. Also, acting like I said Duncan had good teammates in 2003 when I said he had mediocre ones is just weird. I mean really. Let's play fair here. I could call you an insane homer but namecalling is not rationally discussing things. Besides teammates is part of the argument, the other part is Hakeem's nuking of three top 50 guys. I said he had 2 teammates in double figures true which was an error on my part (its too late to even get into the argument at this point that scoring double figures doesn't make you a good player, its a pretty arbitrary number) Also, accusing someone else who thinks Hakeem was better than Duncan, of fellating me is ridiculous since it seems to me that most people think 1993-95 Hakeem was better than any 2-3 year version of Duncan.

At that point in his career Thorpe was very statistically similar to someone like Al Horford. As a matter of fact they're both muscular 6'9 guys with mechanical post games who shot a high percentage and averaged 14/10 and about a block per game. Thorpe averaged 20/10 one year in his career but that was on an awful Sacramento team, and in 1993-94 he had fallen off from his earlier Rockets career. He was a famously tough guy who I would rank above Horford for that reason alone but he was an above average power forward nothing else. The guy was a one time All Star. Also, a backcourt that averages 9 assists per game is so common place as to not be worth discussing. When I was looking up the record of the team Thorpe was on when he scored 20/10 I noticed the 28-54 1988 Kings backcourt average 13 apg. Heck, this year's 25 win Kings team averaged over 10 apg. To make matters worse Kevin Loughery and Fred Carter averaged a combined 8.9 apg for the 9-73 Sixers team in 1972-73.

Things you didn't mention:

* Maxwell's shooting percentage.
* The fact that Kenny Smith had seriously declined from earlier in his career and was a BJ Armstrong type player at that point (A 48% fg, is not some rare accomplishment when you take 9.1 shots per game, and most of them are open jumpers).
* Maxwell's shooting percentage.
* The fact that no one but Hakeem and Thorpe (16.6) had a PER above the league average. PER isn't the end all of stats but its a useful ancillary tool to use in addition to other ones. It basically its a good measure of how many total stats (points, blocks, rebounds, steals, etc.) a guy ac ulates when he is on the court, and how efficient he is with the ball (TS%, turnover ratio, etc.). These Rockets ac ulated very few stats and weren't that great at protecting the ball. The Spurs had 4 guys with PERs above the league average on their 2003 team.
* Maxwell's shooting percentage at threes (29.8%) plus his taking 5.4 a game of them.
* The fact that no other Rocket could create their own shot. At the very least TP and Speedy had the ability to get to the paint and make some layups.
* Maxwell's shooting percentages and the fact that going by shot attempts he was the bona fide #2 option on that team.

Seriously, some people love championship teams' role players. Reminds of the GMs that give huge contracts to the likes of James Posey, Trevor Ariza, and Devin George.

I love Tim Duncan. He's my favorite player. That doesn't mean I'm irrational about him, and the fact that you could get so worked up that I think peak Hakeem is better than him is weird. It sucks having to sit here and argue against the Spurs on anything. Its not like we're talking about Bill Cartwright being better than him. And what's with the personal attacks? Its like I shot your dog or something.

[Booharv]

Again, the Spurs didn't have a great team around Tim in 03, what he did was very impressive. Not as impressive as what Hakeem did in 1994 and 1995 that's all.

[Shastafarian]

OMG. Sorry Mista, I won't curse no more. Mommy washed my mouth out too many times. I don't wanna have it happen again. You know what's as lame as "cursing" in posts? Dismissing someone's argument because they used words you don't like.

You don't seem to understand what I'm arguing here. First of all I never said nor implied that you thought Duncan had good teammates. Your assertion that Hakeem had teammates conveniently ignores how ty Duncan's teammates have been in the past. It suits your argument. I'm trying to dispel this myth that Hakeem had ty teammates (comparatively) so people can look at their skills without external variables.

What I find hilarious is that you and others are so 100% sure Duncan would get dominated by Hakeem. And if you come back with, "Well he wouldn't get dominated but Hakeem was definitely better". That's hilarious. Ya know, I see that kind of stuff ALL the time. One guy is just a smidge better than another but always bests him. Happens all the time.

I also like how you used Simmons. Where did he rank Hakeem and Duncan respectively?

[Shastafarian]

Again, the Spurs didn't have a great team around Tim in 03, what he did was very impressive. Not as impressive as what Hakeem did in 1994 and 1995 that's all.

So then are you basing your entire argument around this?

[djohn2oo8]

I don't know who it was, but someone in this thread mentioned earlier that Duncan had a better career than Hakeem because Hakeem couldn't get past Jordan, and if Duncan was given the opportunity, he might be able to

[Shastafarian]

I don't know who it was, but someone in this thread mentioned earlier that Duncan had a better career than Hakeem because Hakeem couldn't get past Jordan, and if Duncan was given the opportunity, he might be able to

See that's bull and I know it. Neither of them could get past Jordan. And that's what I'm trying to argue. They were both amazing players. I think they both had unique skills that makes it impossible to say who was a better player. But no. Hakeem had ty teammates! He went through good centers and Barkley and Malone even though he didn't guard them blah blah blah. Gimme a break.

[Shastafarian]

Oops sorry I said "bull ". Should I say 5 hailmarys?

[Booharv]

OMG. Sorry Mista, I won't curse no more. Mommy washed my mouth out too many times. I don't wanna have it happen again. You know what's as lame as "cursing" in posts? Dismissing someone's argument because they used words you don't like.

You don't seem to understand what I'm arguing here. First of all I never said nor implied that you thought Duncan had good teammates. Your assertion that Hakeem had teammates conveniently ignores how ty Duncan's teammates have been in the past. It suits your argument. I'm trying to dispel this myth that Hakeem had ty teammates (comparatively) so people can look at their skills without external variables.

What I find hilarious is that you and others are so 100% sure Duncan would get dominated by Hakeem. And if you come back with, "Well he wouldn't get dominated but Hakeem was definitely better". That's hilarious. Ya know, I see that kind of stuff ALL the time. One guy is just a smidge better than another but always bests him. Happens all the time.

I also like how you used Simmons. Where did he rank Hakeem and Duncan respectively?

I just don't get where the anomisity is coming from. I love Duncan. Most message boards waste time with insults, and the like. You seem like an intelligent guy, not sure why we can't have an intelligent discussion (cue up the "Because you're a re " response). Quite frankly, if I'm a complete moron why are you wasting your time arguing with me?

I never said he would get dominated, just that I would be very nervous and frankly a little worried for him. It's something I'd rather not see tbh. Watching any NBA playoffs will result in surprising developments (just look at this year), so you never could tell. But Hakeem was clearly better to my eyes.

Simmons ranked players based on their total careers. Not their peaks. He basically says that Hakeem's early career hurt his overall ranking because he wasn't a total team player until 1992-93. He even raves about how awesome he was in his peak as does Elliott Kalb in his mediocre book.

All stats aside most of this ranking has to do with the eyeball test. The things Hakeem did to Ewing, Robinson, and O'Neal were unforgettable. I just remember an insane series of spin moves, turnarounds, ball fakes, and up and unders that were awe inspiring and unstoppable. Duncan did bukkake the entire Lakers front line in game 6 of the WCSF (you knew the game was over when they finally put Shaq on him in the third quarter and Tim immediately scored like 10 straight points), but he didn't go face up against three top 50 guys with mediocre help and destroy them and their teams in the way Hakeem did.

Tbh, this argument has way beyond run its course at this point I'm not sure what else needs to be said. Both sides have made their points very clearly at this stage of the game. I'll let you have the last word as far as I'm concerned. Hopefully, the word isn't re , idiot, or dumbass.

[Killakobe81]

i know i havent been watching basketball religiously that long, since 94, but duncan 1999-2003 is the best player i have ever seen. ever.

Jordan was better ...
2000 Shaq was better (only THAT season)
and Hakeem forabout 5 of his seasons (the middle 5) was better ...If you watch Hakeem in thet PLAYOFFS even BEFORE '94-95 he was a beast/

Side note: I have an unle (not from houston he is Belizean) who just loves basketball ...is a Laker fan lives in LA who named his son Akeem . Said he was the best player he ever saw ...

The last corporat training did I did here in Dallas there is a guy in my class named "olajawon" (first name) and his fam is from Louisiana not Dallas.

Point being people act as though "true" basketball fans didnt realize how great Olajawon was ...WE DID. It's only the Jordan obessive fans that act like ball wasnt played outside of the East those years. All the casual fans wanted to see was MJ and if anyone could stop him.

Fans of teams in the wEst: Lakers, Spurs, Suns, Sonics Rox (though biased) and Mavs fans ALL know what a TRUE beast he was ...cuz he killed us.

And if you look at the posts these are the fans defending Hakeems greatness even some Spur fans.

[Mavs_man_41]

In 1992 Dream had Kenny Smith, Maxwell and Thorpe and didn't even make the playoffs. It's pretty obvious his true prime wasn't till 1993.

gimme a break, jason ing terry is better than smith and maxwell, the only player worth noting is thorpe. i didn't know jason terry and someone who could easily be placed on the same talent level as josh howard in maxwell was SUCH A GREAT ING SUPPORTING CAST!!

[Mavs_man_41]

Hakeem was so much harder to guard offensively, and probably the GOAT defensively. is this even a contest? really guys? and you all wonder why nobody tries to hold serious basketball discussion on this site and it's just a bunch of trolling..the fact of the matter is the majority of you guys are ing stupid and your takes aren't even worth debating.

[midnightpulp]

Hakeem was so much harder to guard offensively, and probably the GOAT defensively. is this even a contest? really guys? and you all wonder why nobody tries to hold serious basketball discussion on this site and it's just a bunch of trolling..the fact of the matter is the majority of you guys are ing stupid and your takes aren't even worth debating.

Then why are the majority of posters in this thread, most Spurs fans included, taking the Hakeem side of the debate?

[Mavs_man_41]

Then why are the majority of posters in this thread, most Spurs fans included, taking the Hakeem side of the debate?

i'm mostly refering to the ones who aren't. i've seen quite a few re ed quotes just by skimming through

[duhoh]

no contest. the dream was better, and a far more complete player.

[Shastafarian]

i've seen quite a few re ed quotes just by skimming through

like this?

and probably the GOAT defensively.

[midnightpulp]

like this?

Hakeem is definitely a top 3 defender of all-time, the other two being Russell and Jordan.