How would a prime Olajuwon fare against a prime Duncan?

[HarlemHeat37]

I didn't read the previous argument, but in regards to the Wallaces, that's not true..those Finals were extremely physical and the Wallace frontcourt is one of the best defensive frontcourts in NBA history..Duncan's serious injuries to his feet in 2005 are well do ented too, and it wasn't some minor injury like Kobe's finger or Lebron's elbow..

[Tmac&Luther]

I can't figure out which one is better, but I would love to see it.

Something tells me Spurs fans wouldn't be happy to see the results. Olajuwan was more athletic and more dominant on both ends of the court and this is coming from someone that respects the out of Tim Duncan. Olajuwon was simply the better player though, who played during a MUCH tougher era, and wasn't surrounded by the talent that Duncan has been surrounded by his entire career.

[Tmac&Luther]

Hakeem got hot one series.

Saying regular season head to head match-ups doesn't matter is ridiculous.


It's like saying Sasha Vujacic is so much better than Manu Ginobili because in 2008 Vujacic got the better of Manu for 5 games.

Ignoring the regular season head to head matches is stupid and ignorant for any objective fan with an opinion. Especially considering they've only played 6 playoff games where the sample size is extremely small.

[MaNu4Tres]

Just to elaborate on the that exact post, which I did clarify in my posts right after.

I was comparing what Hakeem averaged against Robinson up to that series vs. those 6 games. It's evident he got hot that one series against Robinson if your comparing that series to all the other previous games he's played against Robinson.

I wasn't saying Hakeem just got hot one series out of all the other series he's played in general. I was comparing that series vs. Robinson to all the other times he's faced Robinson.

But I understand that you're probably 15 years old and too lazy to read through the posts and actually understand what is being meant, so no hard feelings.

[Tmac&Luther]

Just to elaborate on the that exact post, which I did clarify in my posts right after.

I was comparing what Hakeem averaged against Robinson up to that series vs. those 6 games. It's evident he got hot that one series against Robinson if your comparing that series to all the other previous games he's played against Robinson.

I wasn't saying Hakeem just got hot one series out of all the other series he's played in general. I was comparing that series vs. Robinson to all the other times he's faced Robinson.

But I understand that you're probably 15 years old and too lazy to read through the posts and actually understand what is being meant, so no hard feelings.

Umm, actually I'm old enough to have had the privilege of watching Hakeem's prime, David's prime, and Duncan's entire career. And Hakeem "didn't just get hot" he got pissed when David Robinson tried to thank every great player he played against (and listed players like Barkley and other big men and failed to mention Olajuwon's name) during his MVP acceptance speech. Olajuwon being the compe or that he is and the previous MVP winner took offense to that and chose to teach Robinson a lessen so he took him to the woodshed. I love Robinson and he's a TOP NOTCH QUALITY individual, but he was a dumbass for doing that. Olajuwan was extremely prideful and he took that very personal, like Robinson blatantly insulted him.

Hakeem had Dwight and Amare's athleticism, Mutombo's defensive awareness and shot blocking instincts...actually better than Mutombo (and with his elite athleticism he was even a better defender), with the old school post moves of Kevin McHale and international players. The man didn't have a flaw in his game and could defend multiple positions. He was a better individual player/athlete than what Duncan is and has ever been....and like I said before, that isn't a insult to Duncan, it's simply fact.

When did y'all ever see Ducan have the ability to do all of this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBrEsNS9zKg

Duncan is a alltime great, Olajuwon was just better, don't take insult to that...Olajuwon was a great player and we'll probably never witness a big man with so much all around skills again. I pray we do, even if that player ends up playing for the Spurs or Mavs...because I got so much joy out of watching what Hekeem was physically able to do, but even though I had high hopes for Amare and Dwight...they haven't shown the drive to develop that all around game and skill and now I'm convinced that in today's guard oriented league, that we'll never see another Hakeem Olajuwan.

[MaNu4Tres]

Glad you now understand what I meant, after being too lazy to actually read.

[MaNu4Tres]

When did y'all ever see Ducan have the ability to do all of this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBrEsNS9zKg

Duncan is a alltime great, Olajuwon was just better, don't take insult to that...Olajuwon was a great player and we'll probably never witness a big man with so much all around skills again.

[kingmalaki]

In 04 the Spurs didn't show up to play in the last game after 0.4.

He didn't show up in game 3 and 4 either right?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...405090LAL.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...405110LAL.html

In 01 and 02 the Spurs had a weak ass team. Duncan had several monster games in losing efforts. He shot a poor % and had tons of turnovers. It was a case of a player being the focus of the other teams D and trying to do it all.

Kinda like Hakeem for say, most of his career.

In 05 Duncan had poor % shooting wise because Sheed was still a great defender. Big Ben and McDyess were were a better combo than Mason, Oak and Ewing. Tim won the ring with his rebounding and D. He also had 25 points in game 7. Grind it out series and the guy still had 25 points in game 7.

Being a great defender is now a valid excuse? He won the ring because of his efforts and the efforts of others, like Horry saving his ass.

These are all nice excuses. Fact is he was quite guardable in all of those series. And no way in are the Wallace boys a tougher cover than Ewing/Oakley/Mason. Let's not be too biased now.

But you are correct that his rebounding and defense was very good. But he was not some unguardable force during that span like Hakeem in 94/95. We are talking peaks here.

[Tmac&Luther]

That's nice...Olajuwon actually had two quadruple doubles...one which was taken away from him.

Also in that video I failed to see the raw athleticism and overall skill that Olajuwan played with his entire career, especially when Hakeem was able to play like that until the ages of 33 and 34. Hakeem was a better shot blocker, better on the ball defender/stealer and better overall offensive player than Duncan ever was. But Duncan was able to play on better teams during a non big man era so hence...."THE ARGUMENT".

Question....if Duncan and Olajuwon were able to come out and enter the same draft even knowing what they know now, which player do you think G.M's everywhere would take first?

Answer....Olajuwon

[wekko368]

MaNu4Tres, are you serious?

I only watched a few minutes of those clips, but based on what I saw, Olajuwon makes Duncan look slow and clumsy.

[MaNu4Tres]

Rocket fans saying Duncan wasn't as an all around player like Hakeem.

Some opinions proving Duncan's dominance and versatility(all around skill) from Non-biased Rocket fans:

"He is probably the best player to ever play the position the way he plays it," said Utah coach Jerry Sloan, who coached Jazz great Karl Malone.

"I think all around, there's never been a big forward quite like him," said Hall of Fame coach and analyst Jack Ramsay. "Bob Pet was a great scorer and rebounder. Karl Malone was a more powerful player, but they didn't have the versatility Tim does. Kevin McHale was probably the best low-post, back-to-the-basket big forward, and he was a good defender, but he, too, couldn't do the things Duncan can do."

"He's pretty unique in how he plays," Pet said. "He can play with his back to the basket or facing it. I spent 95%-97% of the time facing the basket. He's pretty versatile as a player. It also seems that he's stepped it up in the playoffs."


"In my 20 years in the NBA, Duncan is the best big to play the game," says former Houston Rockets coach Jeff Van Gundy. " O'Neal always had the benefit of a dominant perimeter player, from [Penny] Hardaway to [Kobe] Bryant to [Dwyane] Wade. Duncan has had very good players, but he's never had that dominant player, so that's why I give him the edge."



Page 1: Simmons on Duncan

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2...simmons/070509

Quotes from Page 1: "Helplessly, we've watched him carry the Spurs to three les, a number that could have been five if not for Derek Fisher's miracle shot in 2004 and Manu Ginobili's stupid foul of Dirk Nowitzki last season."

Page 2: Simmons on Duncan

http://proxy.espn.go.com/espn/page2/...yDate=20070514

Quotes from Page 2:

"For his entire prime, Duncan has been one of the top-three most untradeable players in the league.

You know why? Because he gives you a fantastic chance to win the championship every year, that's why. Maybe Karl Malone was better in '97 and '98, maybe Shaq exceeded him in '00 and '01, maybe KG matched him in '04 and Nowitzki matched him in '06 ... but overall, Duncan always seems to keep his teams in the hunt.

Here are San Antonio's numbers during his 10-year career: 559-239 during the regular season, 82-49 in the playoffs, three championships. Since the ABA/NBA merger, only four stars have been that consistently successful for a 10-year span: Bird, Magic, MJ and Shaq ... although I hesitate to put Shaq on that level because he's had six different teams get swept over the course of his career. But that's the list. Superstars like Kareem (nine playoff wins TOTAL in the four seasons before Magic arrived), David Robinson (never made a Finals before Duncan arrived), Hakeem Olajuwon (wildly unsuccessful for most of his prime), Patrick Ewing (played in only one Finals in his prime), Charles Barkley (ditto) and Karl Malone (played in four conference finals, never won a le) couldn't match Duncan's winning consistency over a 10-year period. "

Duncan's achievements: Bolded are the categories Duncan has over Olajuwon

# 4× NBA Champion (1999, 2003, 2005, 2007)
# 3× NBA Finals MVP (1999, 2003, 2005)
# 2× NBA Most Valuable Player (2002–2003)
# NBA Rookie of the Year (1998)
# 12× NBA All-Star (1998, 2000–2010)
# 9× All-NBA First Team (1998–2005, 2007)
# 3× All-NBA Second Team (2006, 2008–2009)
# All-NBA Third Team (2010)
# 8× All-Defensive First Team (1999–2003, 2005, 2007–2008)
# 5× All-Defensive Second Team (1998, 2004, 2006, 2009–2010)
# NBA All-Rookie First Team (1998)
# NBA All-Star Game MVP (2000)(Only irrelevant award)


Hakeem Olajuwon's achievements Bolded are the categories he has over Duncan)
# 2× NBA Champion (1994, 1995)
# NBA MVP (1994)
# 12× All-Star (1985-1990, 1992-1997)
# 2× Finals MVP (1994-1995)
# 2× NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1993-1994)
# 6× All-NBA First Team Selection (1987-1989, 1993-1994, 1997)
# 3× All-NBA Second Team Selection (1986, 1990, 1996)
# 3× All-NBA Third Team Selection (1991, 1995, 1999)
# 5× NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1987-1988, 1990, 1993-1994)
# 4× NBA All-Defensive Second Team Selection (1985, 1991, 1996-1997)




It's also hilarious how Rocket fans point out how much Olajuwon was superior over Duncan on the defensive end, when Duncan has won 13 total NBA ALL Defensive Team(9 first team) to Olajuwon's 9 (5 first team) and Duncan still has at least 2 years left.

[Tmac&Luther]

at rocket fans saying Duncan wasn't as an all around player like Hakeem.






Some opinions proving Duncan's dominance and versatility(all around skill) from Non-biased Rocket fans:

"He is probably the best player to ever play the position the way he plays it," said Utah coach Jerry Sloan, who coached Jazz great Karl Malone.

"I think all around, there's never been a big forward quite like him," said Hall of Fame coach and analyst Jack Ramsay. "Bob Pet was a great scorer and rebounder. Karl Malone was a more powerful player, but they didn't have the versatility Tim does. Kevin McHale was probably the best low-post, back-to-the-basket big forward, and he was a good defender, but he, too, couldn't do the things Duncan can do."

"He's pretty unique in how he plays," Pet said. "He can play with his back to the basket or facing it. I spent 95%-97% of the time facing the basket. He's pretty versatile as a player. It also seems that he's stepped it up in the playoffs."


"In my 20 years in the NBA, Duncan is the best big to play the game," says former Houston Rockets coach Jeff Van Gundy. " O'Neal always had the benefit of a dominant perimeter player, from [Penny] Hardaway to [Kobe] Bryant to [Dwyane] Wade. Duncan has had very good players, but he's never had that dominant player, so that's why I give him the edge."



Page 1: Simmons on Duncan

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2...simmons/070509

Quotes from Page 1: "Helplessly, we've watched him carry the Spurs to three les, a number that could have been five if not for Derek Fisher's miracle shot in 2004 and Manu Ginobili's stupid foul of Dirk Nowitzki last season."

Page 2: Simmons on Duncan

http://proxy.espn.go.com/espn/page2/...yDate=20070514

Quotes from Page 2:

"For his entire prime, Duncan has been one of the top-three most untradeable players in the league.

You know why? Because he gives you a fantastic chance to win the championship every year, that's why. Maybe Karl Malone was better in '97 and '98, maybe Shaq exceeded him in '00 and '01, maybe KG matched him in '04 and Nowitzki matched him in '06 ... but overall, Duncan always seems to keep his teams in the hunt.

Here are San Antonio's numbers during his 10-year career: 559-239 during the regular season, 82-49 in the playoffs, three championships. Since the ABA/NBA merger, only four stars have been that consistently successful for a 10-year span: Bird, Magic, MJ and Shaq ... although I hesitate to put Shaq on that level because he's had six different teams get swept over the course of his career. But that's the list. Superstars like Kareem (nine playoff wins TOTAL in the four seasons before Magic arrived), David Robinson (never made a Finals before Duncan arrived), Hakeem Olajuwon (wildly unsuccessful for most of his prime), Patrick Ewing (played in only one Finals in his prime), Charles Barkley (ditto) and Karl Malone (played in four conference finals, never won a le) couldn't match Duncan's winning consistency over a 10-year period. "

Duncan's achievements: Bolded are the categories Duncan has over Olajuwon

# 4× NBA Champion (1999, 2003, 2005, 2007)
# 3× NBA Finals MVP (1999, 2003, 2005)
# 2× NBA Most Valuable Player (2002–2003)
# NBA Rookie of the Year (1998)
# 12× NBA All-Star (1998, 2000–2010)
# 9× All-NBA First Team (1998–2005, 2007)
# 3× All-NBA Second Team (2006, 2008–2009)
# All-NBA Third Team (2010)
# 8× All-Defensive First Team (1999–2003, 2005, 2007–2008)
# 5× All-Defensive Second Team (1998, 2004, 2006, 2009–2010)
# NBA All-Rookie First Team (1998)
# NBA All-Star Game MVP (2000)(Only irrelevant award)


Hakeem Olajuwon's achievements Bolded are the categories he has over Duncan)
# 2× NBA Champion (1994, 1995)
# NBA MVP (1994)
# 12× All-Star (1985-1990, 1992-1997)
# 2× Finals MVP (1994-1995)
# 2× NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1993-1994)
# 6× All-NBA First Team Selection (1987-1989, 1993-1994, 1997)
# 3× All-NBA Second Team Selection (1986, 1990, 1996)
# 3× All-NBA Third Team Selection (1991, 1995, 1999)
# 5× NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1987-1988, 1990, 1993-1994)
# 4× NBA All-Defensive Second Team Selection (1985, 1991, 1996-1997)


It's also hilarious how Rocket fans point out how much Olajuwon was superior over Duncan on the defensive end, when Duncan has won more first and second team All NBA Defensive awards than Olajuwon has.

Too bad most of the awards were team oriented and credited towards the PF position during a much weaker big man era, but keep on smoking that tar.

P.S.

DUNCAN WAS NOT THE ALL AROUND TALENT THAT HAKEEM WAS....he just wasn't and isn't.

[Tmac&Luther]

Oh how I love how "spur fan" pimps awards and accolades when it's obvious Duncan played during a different era, while career stats say Hakeem was by far and away better on offense and defense 4 > 2 es

[TD4THREE]

But you are correct that his rebounding and defense was very good. But he was not some unguardable force during that span like Hakeem in 94/95. We are talking peaks here.

Yes we are, so why are you comparing one of Duncan's worst shooting series with Hakeem best season?

[Tmac&Luther]

Yes we are, so why are you comparing one of Duncan's worst shooting series with Hakeem best season?

Honest question and I want a honest anwer...not this team accolade bull .

In what area of Duncan's game would he have a distinct or even any advantage over Olajuwon?

[wekko368]

It's also hilarious how Rocket fans point out how much Olajuwon was superior over Duncan on the defensive end, when Duncan has won more first and second team All NBA Defensive awards than Olajuwon has.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the All-Defensive team picks 2 guards, 2 forwards, and center.

Olajuwon was always listed as a center so he had to compete against Robinson, Ewing, and Mutombo for the single center slot.

On the other hand, Duncan is listed as a forward and therefore competes for 1 out of 2 possible first team spots.

In other words, its much easier to make the first team listed as a forward as opposed to being listed as a center.

[Tmac&Luther]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the All-Defensive team picks 2 guards, 2 forwards, and center.

Olajuwon was always listed as a center so he had to compete against Robinson, Ewing, and Mutombo for the single center slot.

On the other hand, Duncan is listed as a forward and therefore competes for 1 out of 2 possible first team spots.

In other words, its much easier to make the first team listed as a forward as opposed to being listed as a center.

Umm, don't let the truth get in the way of his ridiculous post.

Only a moron would thing that Duncan was a better defensive player than one of the best defensive players (and all time shot blocker) in league history.

[TD4THREE]

Too bad most of the awards were team oriented and credited towards the PF position during a much weaker big man era, but keep on smoking that tar.

P.S.

Actually Duncan was in one of the best eras for PFs ever, Duncan,Garnett,Webber,Wallace,Gasol, Nowitzki,Amare,, and several second tier guys like Brand,Bosh etc. So I don't see how those accolades are somehow tarnished due to position.

[wekko368]

Umm, don't let the truth get in the way of his ridiculous post.

Only a moron would thing that Duncan was a better defensive player than one of the best defensive players (and all time shot blocker) in league history.

Let's not forget that he's the in the top 10 all-time in steals. But to be fair, who knows how many blocks KAJ would've totaled had they recorded blocks back then.

[MaNu4Tres]

Too bad most of the awards were team oriented .

Wow are you really that ignorant and stupid? (hate to be harsh)

The only award that is team oriented is the number of championships.

Everything else is an individual award that is based solely on the individuals play.

Which he clearly received more of.

credited towards the PF position during a much weaker big man era.

These are some of the power forwards Duncan has won awards over during the course of his career. (Over 6 Hall of famers at least and counting)

Kevin Garnett (whole career)HOF
Dirk Nowitzki (whole career)HOF
Karl Malone(1997/1998-2003/2004)HOF
Chris Webber (whole career)HOF
Rasheed Wallace (whole career)
Amare Stoudamire (2003-2010)HOF
Chris Bosh (2003-2010)
Carlos Boozer (2002-2010)
Al Jefferson (2004-2010)
Pau Gasol (2001-2010) HOF
Elton Brand (1999-2008)
David West (2003-2010)
Lamar Odom (1999-2010)

[Tmac&Luther]

Actually Duncan was in one of the best eras for PFs ever, Duncan,Garnett,Webber,Wallace,Gasol, Nowitzki,Amare,, and several second tier guys like Brand,Bosh etc. So I don't see how those accolades are somehow tarnished due to position.

LMAO....Nowitzki played more like a oversized SF for alot of his career and was NEVER KNOWN FOR HIS DEFENSIVE ABILITY and Garnett is the only er that can Duncan can really say was compe ion throughout the length of his career.

Oh ....how old are you....15? Where are the dominant defenders? Amare Webber Gasol Seriously you need to learn about the late 80s and early 90s game.

[Mr.Robinson]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the All-Defensive team picks 2 guards, 2 forwards, and center.

Olajuwon was always listed as a center so he had to compete against Robinson, Ewing, and Mutombo for the single center slot.

On the other hand, Duncan is listed as a forward and therefore competes for 1 out of 2 possible first team spots.

In other words, its much easier to make the first team listed as a forward as opposed to being listed as a center.

Tim Duncan is the greatest one on one defender of all time.

[Tmac&Luther]

Tim Duncan is the greatest one on one defender of all time.

Oh



Duncan isn't even recognized as the best 1 on 1 defender in SA during his prime and championship years in SA.

[TD4THREE]

Honest question and I want a honest anwer...not this team accolade bull .

In what area of Duncan's game would he have a distinct or even any advantage over Olajuwon?

I think he's a superior passer, and I think you could also make a case that he's a better shooter. Other than that I couldn't really say that Duncan had another advantage in his game over Hakeem's.

[wekko368]

Actually Duncan was in one of the best eras for PFs ever, Duncan,Garnett,Webber,Wallace,Gasol, Nowitzki,Amare,, and several second tier guys like Brand,Bosh etc. So I don't see how those accolades are somehow tarnished due to position.

Well, the accolade in question is the All-Defensive First team. Of those PF's you listed, only Garnett and Wallace are good defenders, and correct me if I'm wrong, but Ben Wallace was listed as a center.

So if the only good defensive power forwards in that era were Garnett and Duncan, then it's pretty easy for them both to make the defensive first team. And in case you're wondering, they both made the first team in 2000, 01, 02, 03, 05, and 08.

I'm not trying to take anything away from Duncan. He was a great defender. But I think Olajuwon's 5 first team selections as a C is more impressive than Duncan's 8 first team selections as a PF.