How would a prime Olajuwon fare against a prime Duncan?

[Tmac&Luther]

I think he's a superior passer, and I think you could also make a case that he's a better shooter. Other than that I couldn't really say that Duncan had another advantage in his game over Hakeem's.

Umm, stats say he's a better passer and THAT'S IT.

Better shooter.....NOPE. Hakeem was a MUCH better shooter and could get his shot off a of alot easier, hence all the post moves and angles where he could sink his jumper from...not to mention the better FT shooting.

[wekko368]

I think he's a superior passer, and I think you could also make a case that he's a better shooter. Other than that I couldn't really say that Duncan had another advantage in his game over Hakeem's.

In regards to your "shooter" comment, Duncan is a career 68.7% ft shooter. Olajuwon was a career 71.2%. It wasn't much better, but it was better.

I'm not sure about the superior passing either. You may be right, but here's how I look at it. The 1995 Rockets gameplan was similar to this year's Magic. Throw the ball down to Olajuwon and surround him with shooters. If double teams come, he passes it out and someone will eventually get an open shot.

And since the Rockets won the le, it seems logical that Olajuwon had great passing skills. The only center who I can think of off the top of my head who clearly had superior passing skills was Sabonis.

[MaNu4Tres]

Before you go on a Olajuwon's 5 First teams> Duncan's 9 First teams

I want you to realize Robinson, O'Neal, Dikembe and Mourning were not in the league when Olajuwon won his first two. His biggest compe ion in 87-88 was a 41 year old Jabbar and Ewing respectively. Huge difference to not include the defensive players Mutombo, Robinson, Mourning, O'Neal. IMO


Olajuwon's third was in 1989-1990, Robinson was a rookie and O'Neal, Mutombo and Mourning were still not in the league.

Olajuwon didn't get 1st team All NBA Defensive team again til 93 and 94 and lost it in 90/91, 91/92, 94/95, 95/96, 96/97...After 97 is irrelevant since he was then out of his prime.

[Shastafarian]

I finally crunched those h2h stats against Robsinson.

From Robinson's rookie year in 89/90 to the end of Hakeem's prime as designated by rocketfan in 94/95

Robinson
47.4% FG
22 PPG
11.9 RPG
3.4 BPG

Hakeem
45% FG
24.9 PPG
12.4 RPG
3.7 BPG

Houston was 14-16 (46.7%) in those 6 seasons. But I agree, these stats don't mean anything.

[TD4THREE]

Umm, stats say he's a better passer and THAT'S IT.

Duncan averages 3.2 assists for his career, Hakeem 2.5, and Duncan's highest average for a single season is also higher than Hakeems.

[wekko368]

Before you go on a Olajuwon's 5 First teams> Duncan's 9 First teams

I want you to realize Robinson, O'Neal, Dikembe and Mourning were not in the league win Olajuwon won his first two. His biggest compe ion in 87-88 was a 41 year old Jabbar and Ewing respectively. Huge difference to not include the defensive players Mutombo, Robinson, Mourning, O'Neal. IMO

Ever heard of a guy named Mark Eaton? 2 time defensive player of the year and 3 defensive first teams. I'd say that's pretty tough compe ion.

So for those few years before Robinson joined the league, Olajuwon competed against an aging Jabbar, Ewing, and Eaton for the single defensive first team center position.

That's still infinitely tougher than Duncan competing against Garnett for two defensive first team forward spots.

[Tmac&Luther]

Duncan averages 3.2 assists for his career, Hakeem 2.5, and Duncan's highest average for a single season is also higher than Hakeems.

??? I already conceded that Duncan was historically a better passer and Olajuwon was better at everything else....what's the reason for your post?

[MaNu4Tres]

Ever heard of a guy named Mark Eaton? 2 time defensive player of the year and 3 defensive first teams. I'd say that's pretty tough compe ion.


That's still infinitely tougher than Duncan competing against Garnett for two defensive first team forward spots.

Infinitely tougher? Really Mark Eaton?

Just because there's 2 spots doesn't necessarily mean it's easier. There's twice as many candidates as SF and PF are available to be considered. It's still the same amount of players to choose from for each spot when you consider this.

Garnett, Pippen, Malone, Sheed, Bowen, Artest, Kirlenko( his first 5 years), P.J Brown in his prime were all better defensive players than Mark Eaton.IMO

[wekko368]

I finally crunched those h2h stats against Robsinson.

...

Houston was 14-16 (46.7%) in those 6 seasons. But I agree, these stats don't mean anything.

Those stats do mean something, but not much. The 1995 WCF series makes a much more compelling argument.

You have two championship caliber teams led by their HOF centers going head to head in the playoffs at their absolute primes and in full health. There's nothing more definitive.

Your data simply has too many variables to be considered reliable. For instance, how good were those Rockets/Spurs teams? If the Rockets had a poor team, that meant that Olajuwon would have to shoulder the offensive load while the defense was geared to stop him. That would hurt his statistics. Same goes for Robinson.

Did any of those games occur while Olajuwon was fasting for Ramadan? That would make a difference. Were any of the key players on either team injured? That would make a difference too.

Additionally, your data focuses only on regular season games, and we all know that the playoffs are an entirely different animal. If we're talking about players in their primes, you need to factor in Olajuwon's ability step up in the playoffs and Robinson's inability to do the same.

[TD4THREE]

??? I already conceded that Duncan was historically a better passer and Olajuwon was better at everything else....what's the reason for your post?

Was a little confused by the nature of your post. Thought you were talking about hakeem.

[Shastafarian]

Those stats do mean something, but not much. The 1995 WCF series makes a much more compelling argument.

Disagree. No doubt playoffs are more important in certain areas but they're such a small sample size (in this case only 6 games) I have a hard time putting the weight at anything over 60/40.

You have two championship caliber teams led by their HOF centers going head to head in the playoffs at their absolute primes and in full health. There's nothing more definitive.

Yeah there is. If there had been more than 6 games. Hence me looking at the regular season. Plus you guys are arguing that Hakeem was unstoppable. Doesn't seem so from his regular season stats. Puts a bit of a kink in your argument.

Your data simply has too many variables to be considered reliable.

That's the beauty of statistics and sample size.

For instance, how good were those Rockets/Spurs teams? If the Rockets had a poor team, that meant that Olajuwon would have to shoulder the offensive load while the defense was geared to stop him. That would hurt his statistics. Same goes for Robinson.

They were pretty equal but the Rockets had an infinitely better coach.

Did any of those games occur while Olajuwon was fasting for Ramadan?

Are you for real?

That would make a difference. Were any of the key players on either team injured? That would make a difference too.

Sample. Size.

Additionally, your data focuses only on regular season games, and we all know that the playoffs are an entirely different animal. If we're talking about players in their primes, you need to factor in Olajuwon's ability step up in the playoffs and Robinson's inability to do the same.

And that's an aspect of our discussion. His mediocrity in the regular season is a knock against him.

[wekko368]

Infinitely tougher? Really Mark Eaton?

I listed Eaton's credentials. There's only a handful of players that have better defensive accolades. So yeah, really Mark Eaton.

And yes, infinitely tougher. Since Duncan and Garnett were clearly the best defensive forwards and there were 2 first team forward slots, it was easy for them both to make it.

Just because there's 2 spots doesn't necessarily mean it's easier. There's twice as many candidates as SF and PF are available to be considered.

There may be more candidates, but SFs are generally irrelevant. Defensive accolades generally go to big men since they anchor the defense and protect the rim. How many SFs do you know perform those functions?

Garnett, Pippen, Malone, Sheed, Bowen, Artest, Kirlenko( his first 5 years), P.J Brown in his prime were all better defensive players than Mark Eaton.IMO

100% wrong.

[MaNu4Tres]

I listed Eaton's credentials. There's only a handful of players that have better defensive accolades. So yeah, really Mark Eaton.

And yes, infinitely tougher. Since Duncan and Garnett were clearly the best defensive forwards and there were 2 first team forward slots, it was easy for them both to make it.



There may be more candidates, but SFs are generally irrelevant. Defensive accolades generally go to big men since they anchor the defense and protect the rim. How many SFs do you know perform those functions?



100% wrong.

Mark Eaton won those awards due to the lack of quality of centers at the time.

And you and all your Rocket's subjective viewpoints are 100% wrong.

The proof is in the pudding my man.

Rocket fans saying Duncan wasn't as an all around player like Hakeem.

Some opinions proving Duncan's dominance and versatility(all around skill) from Non-biased Rocket fans:

"He is probably the best player to ever play the position the way he plays it," said Utah coach Jerry Sloan, who coached Jazz great Karl Malone.

"I think all around, there's never been a big forward quite like him," said Hall of Fame coach and analyst Jack Ramsay. "Bob Pet was a great scorer and rebounder. Karl Malone was a more powerful player, but they didn't have the versatility Tim does. Kevin McHale was probably the best low-post, back-to-the-basket big forward, and he was a good defender, but he, too, couldn't do the things Duncan can do."

"He's pretty unique in how he plays," Pet said. "He can play with his back to the basket or facing it. I spent 95%-97% of the time facing the basket. He's pretty versatile as a player. It also seems that he's stepped it up in the playoffs."


"In my 20 years in the NBA, Duncan is the best big to play the game," says former Houston Rockets coach Jeff Van Gundy. " O'Neal always had the benefit of a dominant perimeter player, from [Penny] Hardaway to [Kobe] Bryant to [Dwyane] Wade. Duncan has had very good players, but he's never had that dominant player, so that's why I give him the edge."



Page 1: Simmons on Duncan

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2...simmons/070509

Quotes from Page 1: "Helplessly, we've watched him carry the Spurs to three les, a number that could have been five if not for Derek Fisher's miracle shot in 2004 and Manu Ginobili's stupid foul of Dirk Nowitzki last season."

Page 2: Simmons on Duncan

http://proxy.espn.go.com/espn/page2/...yDate=20070514

Quotes from Page 2:

"For his entire prime, Duncan has been one of the top-three most untradeable players in the league.

You know why? Because he gives you a fantastic chance to win the championship every year, that's why. Maybe Karl Malone was better in '97 and '98, maybe Shaq exceeded him in '00 and '01, maybe KG matched him in '04 and Nowitzki matched him in '06 ... but overall, Duncan always seems to keep his teams in the hunt.

Here are San Antonio's numbers during his 10-year career: 559-239 during the regular season, 82-49 in the playoffs, three championships. Since the ABA/NBA merger, only four stars have been that consistently successful for a 10-year span: Bird, Magic, MJ and Shaq ... although I hesitate to put Shaq on that level because he's had six different teams get swept over the course of his career. But that's the list. Superstars like Kareem (nine playoff wins TOTAL in the four seasons before Magic arrived), David Robinson (never made a Finals before Duncan arrived), Hakeem Olajuwon (wildly unsuccessful for most of his prime), Patrick Ewing (played in only one Finals in his prime), Charles Barkley (ditto) and Karl Malone (played in four conference finals, never won a le) couldn't match Duncan's winning consistency over a 10-year period. "

Duncan's achievements: Bolded are the categories Duncan has over Olajuwon

# 4× NBA Champion (1999, 2003, 2005, 2007)
# 3× NBA Finals MVP (1999, 2003, 2005)
# 2× NBA Most Valuable Player (2002–2003)
# NBA Rookie of the Year (1998)
# 12× NBA All-Star (1998, 2000–2010)
# 9× All-NBA First Team (1998–2005, 2007)
# 3× All-NBA Second Team (2006, 2008–2009)
# All-NBA Third Team (2010)
# 8× All-Defensive First Team (1999–2003, 2005, 2007–2008)
# 5× All-Defensive Second Team (1998, 2004, 2006, 2009–2010)
# NBA All-Rookie First Team (1998)
# NBA All-Star Game MVP (2000)(Only irrelevant award)


Hakeem Olajuwon's achievements Bolded are the categories he has over Duncan)
# 2× NBA Champion (1994, 1995)
# NBA MVP (1994)
# 12× All-Star (1985-1990, 1992-1997)
# 2× Finals MVP (1994-1995)
# 2× NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1993-1994)
# 6× All-NBA First Team Selection (1987-1989, 1993-1994, 1997)
# 3× All-NBA Second Team Selection (1986, 1990, 1996)
# 3× All-NBA Third Team Selection (1991, 1995, 1999)
# 5× NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1987-1988, 1990, 1993-1994)
# 4× NBA All-Defensive Second Team Selection (1985, 1991, 1996-1997)




It's also hilarious how Rocket fans point out how much Olajuwon was superior over Duncan on the defensive end, when Duncan has won 13 total NBA ALL Defensive Team(9 first team) to Olajuwon's 9 (5 first team) and Duncan still has at least 2 years left.

[MaNu4Tres]

Just in case you have problems reading and comprehending let me show you again:

Rocket fans saying Duncan wasn't as an all around player like Hakeem.

Some opinions proving Duncan's dominance and versatility(all around skill) from Non-biased Rocket fans:

"He is probably the best player to ever play the position the way he plays it," said Utah coach Jerry Sloan, who coached Jazz great Karl Malone.

"I think all around, there's never been a big forward quite like him," said Hall of Fame coach and analyst Jack Ramsay. "Bob Pet was a great scorer and rebounder. Karl Malone was a more powerful player, but they didn't have the versatility Tim does. Kevin McHale was probably the best low-post, back-to-the-basket big forward, and he was a good defender, but he, too, couldn't do the things Duncan can do."

"He's pretty unique in how he plays," Pet said. "He can play with his back to the basket or facing it. I spent 95%-97% of the time facing the basket. He's pretty versatile as a player. It also seems that he's stepped it up in the playoffs."


"In my 20 years in the NBA, Duncan is the best big to play the game," says former Houston Rockets coach Jeff Van Gundy. " O'Neal always had the benefit of a dominant perimeter player, from [Penny] Hardaway to [Kobe] Bryant to [Dwyane] Wade. Duncan has had very good players, but he's never had that dominant player, so that's why I give him the edge."



Page 1: Simmons on Duncan

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2...simmons/070509

Quotes from Page 1: "Helplessly, we've watched him carry the Spurs to three les, a number that could have been five if not for Derek Fisher's miracle shot in 2004 and Manu Ginobili's stupid foul of Dirk Nowitzki last season."

Page 2: Simmons on Duncan

http://proxy.espn.go.com/espn/page2/...yDate=20070514

Quotes from Page 2:

"For his entire prime, Duncan has been one of the top-three most untradeable players in the league.

You know why? Because he gives you a fantastic chance to win the championship every year, that's why. Maybe Karl Malone was better in '97 and '98, maybe Shaq exceeded him in '00 and '01, maybe KG matched him in '04 and Nowitzki matched him in '06 ... but overall, Duncan always seems to keep his teams in the hunt.

Here are San Antonio's numbers during his 10-year career: 559-239 during the regular season, 82-49 in the playoffs, three championships. Since the ABA/NBA merger, only four stars have been that consistently successful for a 10-year span: Bird, Magic, MJ and Shaq ... although I hesitate to put Shaq on that level because he's had six different teams get swept over the course of his career. But that's the list. Superstars like Kareem (nine playoff wins TOTAL in the four seasons before Magic arrived), David Robinson (never made a Finals before Duncan arrived), Hakeem Olajuwon (wildly unsuccessful for most of his prime), Patrick Ewing (played in only one Finals in his prime), Charles Barkley (ditto) and Karl Malone (played in four conference finals, never won a le) couldn't match Duncan's winning consistency over a 10-year period. "

Duncan's achievements: Bolded are the categories Duncan has over Olajuwon

# 4× NBA Champion (1999, 2003, 2005, 2007)
# 3× NBA Finals MVP (1999, 2003, 2005)
# 2× NBA Most Valuable Player (2002–2003)
# NBA Rookie of the Year (1998)
# 12× NBA All-Star (1998, 2000–2010)
# 9× All-NBA First Team (1998–2005, 2007)
# 3× All-NBA Second Team (2006, 2008–2009)
# All-NBA Third Team (2010)
# 8× All-Defensive First Team (1999–2003, 2005, 2007–2008)
# 5× All-Defensive Second Team (1998, 2004, 2006, 2009–2010)
# NBA All-Rookie First Team (1998)
# NBA All-Star Game MVP (2000)(Only irrelevant award)


Hakeem Olajuwon's achievements Bolded are the categories he has over Duncan)
# 2× NBA Champion (1994, 1995)
# NBA MVP (1994)
# 12× All-Star (1985-1990, 1992-1997)
# 2× Finals MVP (1994-1995)
# 2× NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1993-1994)
# 6× All-NBA First Team Selection (1987-1989, 1993-1994, 1997)
# 3× All-NBA Second Team Selection (1986, 1990, 1996)
# 3× All-NBA Third Team Selection (1991, 1995, 1999)
# 5× NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1987-1988, 1990, 1993-1994)
# 4× NBA All-Defensive Second Team Selection (1985, 1991, 1996-1997)




It's also hilarious how Rocket fans point out how much Olajuwon was superior over Duncan on the defensive end, when Duncan has won 13 total NBA ALL Defensive Team(9 first team) to Olajuwon's 9 (5 first team) and Duncan still has at least 2 years left.

[wekko368]

Sample. Size.

Nothing is more relevant than a playoff series. Each team has time to analyze weaknesses and make adjustments to fully prepare for each other. That's the point of the playoffs...to determine the best team.

Your sample might be relevant if the team with the most regular season wins were annointed champion.

And that's an aspect of our discussion. His mediocrity in the regular season is a knock against him.

Olajuwon was not a mediocre regular season player. Look at his numbers. They're similar to Robinson's. But in the playoffs, Olajuwon steps his game up. Robinson doesn't.

[Shastafarian]

Hakeem would wipe his ass with Duncan more than he did Robinson.

Take it from this guy. He would know being a Pakistani and all. They gotta be proficient at wiping ass because if they're not careful all the TP gets stuck in the forest of hair.

[MaNu4Tres]

Read it and weep it mucca's:

Rocket fans saying Duncan wasn't as an all around player like Hakeem.

Some opinions proving Duncan's dominance and versatility(all around skill) from Non-biased Rocket fans:

"He is probably the best player to ever play the position the way he plays it," said Utah coach Jerry Sloan, who coached Jazz great Karl Malone.

"I think all around, there's never been a big forward quite like him," said Hall of Fame coach and analyst Jack Ramsay. "Bob Pet was a great scorer and rebounder. Karl Malone was a more powerful player, but they didn't have the versatility Tim does. Kevin McHale was probably the best low-post, back-to-the-basket big forward, and he was a good defender, but he, too, couldn't do the things Duncan can do."

"He's pretty unique in how he plays," Pet said. "He can play with his back to the basket or facing it. I spent 95%-97% of the time facing the basket. He's pretty versatile as a player. It also seems that he's stepped it up in the playoffs."


"In my 20 years in the NBA, Duncan is the best big to play the game," says former Houston Rockets coach Jeff Van Gundy. " O'Neal always had the benefit of a dominant perimeter player, from [Penny] Hardaway to [Kobe] Bryant to [Dwyane] Wade. Duncan has had very good players, but he's never had that dominant player, so that's why I give him the edge."



Page 1: Simmons on Duncan

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2...simmons/070509

Quotes from Page 1: "Helplessly, we've watched him carry the Spurs to three les, a number that could have been five if not for Derek Fisher's miracle shot in 2004 and Manu Ginobili's stupid foul of Dirk Nowitzki last season."

Page 2: Simmons on Duncan

http://proxy.espn.go.com/espn/page2/...yDate=20070514

Quotes from Page 2:

"For his entire prime, Duncan has been one of the top-three most untradeable players in the league.

You know why? Because he gives you a fantastic chance to win the championship every year, that's why. Maybe Karl Malone was better in '97 and '98, maybe Shaq exceeded him in '00 and '01, maybe KG matched him in '04 and Nowitzki matched him in '06 ... but overall, Duncan always seems to keep his teams in the hunt.

Here are San Antonio's numbers during his 10-year career: 559-239 during the regular season, 82-49 in the playoffs, three championships. Since the ABA/NBA merger, only four stars have been that consistently successful for a 10-year span: Bird, Magic, MJ and Shaq ... although I hesitate to put Shaq on that level because he's had six different teams get swept over the course of his career. But that's the list. Superstars like Kareem (nine playoff wins TOTAL in the four seasons before Magic arrived), David Robinson (never made a Finals before Duncan arrived), Hakeem Olajuwon (wildly unsuccessful for most of his prime), Patrick Ewing (played in only one Finals in his prime), Charles Barkley (ditto) and Karl Malone (played in four conference finals, never won a le) couldn't match Duncan's winning consistency over a 10-year period. "

Duncan's achievements: Bolded are the categories Duncan has over Olajuwon

# 4× NBA Champion (1999, 2003, 2005, 2007)
# 3× NBA Finals MVP (1999, 2003, 2005)
# 2× NBA Most Valuable Player (2002–2003)
# NBA Rookie of the Year (1998)
# 12× NBA All-Star (1998, 2000–2010)
# 9× All-NBA First Team (1998–2005, 2007)
# 3× All-NBA Second Team (2006, 2008–2009)
# All-NBA Third Team (2010)
# 8× All-Defensive First Team (1999–2003, 2005, 2007–2008)
# 5× All-Defensive Second Team (1998, 2004, 2006, 2009–2010)
# NBA All-Rookie First Team (1998)
# NBA All-Star Game MVP (2000)(Only irrelevant award)


Hakeem Olajuwon's achievements Bolded are the categories he has over Duncan)
# 2× NBA Champion (1994, 1995)
# NBA MVP (1994)
# 12× All-Star (1985-1990, 1992-1997)
# 2× Finals MVP (1994-1995)
# 2× NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1993-1994)
# 6× All-NBA First Team Selection (1987-1989, 1993-1994, 1997)
# 3× All-NBA Second Team Selection (1986, 1990, 1996)
# 3× All-NBA Third Team Selection (1991, 1995, 1999)
# 5× NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1987-1988, 1990, 1993-1994)
# 4× NBA All-Defensive Second Team Selection (1985, 1991, 1996-1997)




It's also hilarious how Rocket fans point out how much Olajuwon was superior over Duncan on the defensive end, when Duncan has won 13 total NBA ALL Defensive Team(9 first team) to Olajuwon's 9 (5 first team) and Duncan still has at least 2 years left.

[MaNu4Tres]

3rd times a charm lads:

Rocket fans saying Duncan wasn't as an all around player like Hakeem.

Some opinions proving Duncan's dominance and versatility(all around skill) from Non-biased Rocket fans:

"He is probably the best player to ever play the position the way he plays it," said Utah coach Jerry Sloan, who coached Jazz great Karl Malone.

"I think all around, there's never been a big forward quite like him," said Hall of Fame coach and analyst Jack Ramsay. "Bob Pet was a great scorer and rebounder. Karl Malone was a more powerful player, but they didn't have the versatility Tim does. Kevin McHale was probably the best low-post, back-to-the-basket big forward, and he was a good defender, but he, too, couldn't do the things Duncan can do."

"He's pretty unique in how he plays," Pet said. "He can play with his back to the basket or facing it. I spent 95%-97% of the time facing the basket. He's pretty versatile as a player. It also seems that he's stepped it up in the playoffs."


"In my 20 years in the NBA, Duncan is the best big to play the game," says former Houston Rockets coach Jeff Van Gundy. " O'Neal always had the benefit of a dominant perimeter player, from [Penny] Hardaway to [Kobe] Bryant to [Dwyane] Wade. Duncan has had very good players, but he's never had that dominant player, so that's why I give him the edge."



Page 1: Simmons on Duncan

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2...simmons/070509

Quotes from Page 1: "Helplessly, we've watched him carry the Spurs to three les, a number that could have been five if not for Derek Fisher's miracle shot in 2004 and Manu Ginobili's stupid foul of Dirk Nowitzki last season."

Page 2: Simmons on Duncan

http://proxy.espn.go.com/espn/page2/...yDate=20070514

Quotes from Page 2:

"For his entire prime, Duncan has been one of the top-three most untradeable players in the league.

You know why? Because he gives you a fantastic chance to win the championship every year, that's why. Maybe Karl Malone was better in '97 and '98, maybe Shaq exceeded him in '00 and '01, maybe KG matched him in '04 and Nowitzki matched him in '06 ... but overall, Duncan always seems to keep his teams in the hunt.

Here are San Antonio's numbers during his 10-year career: 559-239 during the regular season, 82-49 in the playoffs, three championships. Since the ABA/NBA merger, only four stars have been that consistently successful for a 10-year span: Bird, Magic, MJ and Shaq ... although I hesitate to put Shaq on that level because he's had six different teams get swept over the course of his career. But that's the list. Superstars like Kareem (nine playoff wins TOTAL in the four seasons before Magic arrived), David Robinson (never made a Finals before Duncan arrived), Hakeem Olajuwon (wildly unsuccessful for most of his prime), Patrick Ewing (played in only one Finals in his prime), Charles Barkley (ditto) and Karl Malone (played in four conference finals, never won a le) couldn't match Duncan's winning consistency over a 10-year period. "

Duncan's achievements: Bolded are the categories Duncan has over Olajuwon

# 4× NBA Champion (1999, 2003, 2005, 2007)
# 3× NBA Finals MVP (1999, 2003, 2005)
# 2× NBA Most Valuable Player (2002–2003)
# NBA Rookie of the Year (1998)
# 12× NBA All-Star (1998, 2000–2010)
# 9× All-NBA First Team (1998–2005, 2007)
# 3× All-NBA Second Team (2006, 2008–2009)
# All-NBA Third Team (2010)
# 8× All-Defensive First Team (1999–2003, 2005, 2007–2008)
# 5× All-Defensive Second Team (1998, 2004, 2006, 2009–2010)
# NBA All-Rookie First Team (1998)
# NBA All-Star Game MVP (2000)(Only irrelevant award)


Hakeem Olajuwon's achievements Bolded are the categories he has over Duncan)
# 2× NBA Champion (1994, 1995)
# NBA MVP (1994)
# 12× All-Star (1985-1990, 1992-1997)
# 2× Finals MVP (1994-1995)
# 2× NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1993-1994)
# 6× All-NBA First Team Selection (1987-1989, 1993-1994, 1997)
# 3× All-NBA Second Team Selection (1986, 1990, 1996)
# 3× All-NBA Third Team Selection (1991, 1995, 1999)
# 5× NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1987-1988, 1990, 1993-1994)
# 4× NBA All-Defensive Second Team Selection (1985, 1991, 1996-1997)




It's also hilarious how Rocket fans point out how much Olajuwon was superior over Duncan on the defensive end, when Duncan has won 13 total NBA ALL Defensive Team(9 first team) to Olajuwon's 9 (5 first team) and Duncan still has at least 2 years left.

[Shastafarian]

Nothing is more relevant than a playoff series.

As a single en y maybe. Keep ignoring the regular season. We'll each do what we can to cater to our own arguments.

Each team has time to analyze weaknesses and make adjustments to fully prepare for each other. That's the point of the playoffs...to determine the best team.

Is it also to determine the best player? Why do they base the MVP off of regular season?

Your sample might be relevant if the team with the most regular season wins were annointed champion.

So it's irrelevant. Gotcha. Regular season doesn't matter.

Olajuwon was not a mediocre regular season player.

His FG% against Robinson sure was.

Look at his numbers. They're similar to Robinson's. But in the playoffs, Olajuwon steps his game up. Robinson doesn't.

And that's why he was better than Robinson, which I've already said a few times. Unfortunately that's not what we're arguing.

[wekko368]

Mark Eaton won those awards due to the lack of quality of centers at the time.

The same can be said for Duncan and his defensive accolades. During Duncan's era, there were two great defensive PF's (Duncan/Garnett) and two first team defensive forward slots. You do the math.

And you and all your Rocket's subjective viewpoints are 100% wrong.

The proof is in the pudding my man .

If they're wrong, why don't you disprove them?

[MaNu4Tres]

If they're wrong, why don't you disprove them?

Okay maybe the fluctuation in the bold lettering was hard to read.
*Edited and fixed*

Rocket fans saying Duncan wasn't as an all around player like Hakeem.

Some opinions proving Duncan's dominance and versatility(all around skill) from Non-biased Rocket fans:

"He is probably the best player to ever play the position the way he plays it," said Utah coach Jerry Sloan, who coached Jazz great Karl Malone.

"I think all around, there's never been a big forward quite like him," said Hall of Fame coach and analyst Jack Ramsay. "Bob Pet was a great scorer and rebounder. Karl Malone was a more powerful player, but they didn't have the versatility Tim does. Kevin McHale was probably the best low-post, back-to-the-basket big forward, and he was a good defender, but he, too, couldn't do the things Duncan can do."

"He's pretty unique in how he plays," Pet said. "He can play with his back to the basket or facing it. I spent 95%-97% of the time facing the basket. He's pretty versatile as a player. It also seems that he's stepped it up in the playoffs."


"In my 20 years in the NBA, Duncan is the best big to play the game," says former Houston Rockets coach Jeff Van Gundy. " O'Neal always had the benefit of a dominant perimeter player, from [Penny] Hardaway to [Kobe] Bryant to [Dwyane] Wade. Duncan has had very good players, but he's never had that dominant player, so that's why I give him the edge."



Page 1: Simmons on Duncan

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2...simmons/070509

Quotes from Page 1: "Helplessly, we've watched him carry the Spurs to three les, a number that could have been five if not for Derek Fisher's miracle shot in 2004 and Manu Ginobili's stupid foul of Dirk Nowitzki last season."

Page 2: Simmons on Duncan

http://proxy.espn.go.com/espn/page2/...yDate=20070514

Quotes from Page 2:

"For his entire prime, Duncan has been one of the top-three most untradeable players in the league.

You know why? Because he gives you a fantastic chance to win the championship every year, that's why. Maybe Karl Malone was better in '97 and '98, maybe Shaq exceeded him in '00 and '01, maybe KG matched him in '04 and Nowitzki matched him in '06 ... but overall, Duncan always seems to keep his teams in the hunt.

Here are San Antonio's numbers during his 10-year career: 559-239 during the regular season, 82-49 in the playoffs, three championships. Since the ABA/NBA merger, only four stars have been that consistently successful for a 10-year span: Bird, Magic, MJ and Shaq ... although I hesitate to put Shaq on that level because he's had six different teams get swept over the course of his career. But that's the list. Superstars like Kareem (nine playoff wins TOTAL in the four seasons before Magic arrived), David Robinson (never made a Finals before Duncan arrived), Hakeem Olajuwon (wildly unsuccessful for most of his prime), Patrick Ewing (played in only one Finals in his prime), Charles Barkley (ditto) and Karl Malone (played in four conference finals, never won a le) couldn't match Duncan's winning consistency over a 10-year period.

Duncan's achievements: Bolded are the categories Duncan has over Olajuwon

# 4× NBA Champion (1999, 2003, 2005, 2007)
# 3× NBA Finals MVP (1999, 2003, 2005)
# 2× NBA Most Valuable Player (2002–2003)
# NBA Rookie of the Year (1998)
# 12× NBA All-Star (1998, 2000–2010)
# 9× All-NBA First Team (1998–2005, 2007)
# 3× All-NBA Second Team (2006, 2008–2009)
# All-NBA Third Team (2010)
# 8× All-Defensive First Team (1999–2003, 2005, 2007–2008)
# 5× All-Defensive Second Team (1998, 2004, 2006, 2009–2010)
# NBA All-Rookie First Team (1998)
# NBA All-Star Game MVP (2000)(Only irrelevant award)


Hakeem Olajuwon's achievements Bolded are the categories he has over Duncan)
# 2× NBA Champion (1994, 1995)
# NBA MVP (1994)
# 12× All-Star (1985-1990, 1992-1997)
# 2× Finals MVP (1994-1995)
# 2× NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1993-1994)
# 6× All-NBA First Team Selection (1987-1989, 1993-1994, 1997)
# 3× All-NBA Second Team Selection (1986, 1990, 1996)
# 3× All-NBA Third Team Selection (1991, 1995, 1999)
# 5× NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1987-1988, 1990, 1993-1994)
# 4× NBA All-Defensive Second Team Selection (1985, 1991, 1996-1997)




It's also hilarious how Rocket fans point out how much Olajuwon was superior over Duncan on the defensive end, when Duncan has won 13 total NBA ALL Defensive Team(9 first team) to Olajuwon's 9 (5 first team) and Duncan still has at least 2 years left.

[wekko368]

As a single en y maybe. Keep ignoring the regular season. We'll each do what we can to cater to our own arguments.

I'm not ignoring the regular season. But I recognize that it's simply not as important as the postseason.

Is it also to determine the best player? Why do they base the MVP off of regular season?

Are you serious? The MVP is based off the regular season b/c it's a regular season award. It doesn't account for playoff performances.

So it's irrelevant. Gotcha. Regular season doesn't matter.

Regular season is incomplete. Don't you think its important to factor in how a player performs under postseason pressure?

Luther Head was a solid regular season player, yet in his last playoff series with the Rockets, he had a negative PER.

And that's why he was better than Robinson, which I've already said a few times. Unfortunately that's not what we're arguing.

What exactly is it that you're arguing?

[wekko368]

Okay maybe the fluctuation in the bold lettering was hard to read.
*Edited and fixed*

Looks like those quotes are referring to PF's (which precludes Olajuwon) and a specific comparison to between Duncan/Shaq.

And I've already addressed the All-NBA selections. Its easier to get those awards when you have twice as many chances to get it.

[Shastafarian]

I'm not ignoring the regular season. But I recognize that it's simply not as important as the postseason.

Maybe not. But you're devaluing it to suit your argument.

Are you serious? The MVP is based off the regular season b/c it's a regular season award. It doesn't account for playoff performances.

Yes I know. My question was why have it as a regular season award if the playoffs matter so much?

Regular season is incomplete. Don't you think its important to factor in how a player performs under postseason pressure?

Sure

Luther Head was a solid regular season player, yet in his last playoff series with the Rockets, he had a negative PER.

And you lost me here. Luther Head sucks always and forever.

What exactly is it that you're arguing?

That Hakeem had some outstanding performances in the playoffs but people are using those to overrate him.

[wekko368]

Maybe not. But you're devaluing it to suit your argument.

I devalue regular season accomplishments b/c it's not as valuable as postseason accomplishments.

Yes I know. My question was why have it as a regular season award if the playoffs matter so much?

It's an award to celebrate the most valuable player in the regular season.
But is has nothing to do with the postseason which is more important than the regular season when determining a player's greatness.

And you lost me here. Luther Head sucks always and forever.

Before Luther Head went MIA in the playoffs, he was a serviceable role player.

That Hakeem had some outstanding performances in the playoffs but people are using those to overrate him.

Outstanding playoff performances warrant his rating.