Tim Duncan never went for fakes the way Hakeem did. Put Tim in the 80 to mid 90's and he gets 4 blocks a game as well. Tree Rollins averaged 4 blocks a game. Different styles and different eras. Are you going to tell me Tree is also a better defender? Hakeem was a great weak side shot blocker. I just don't think he was as good a defender as Tim in one on one situations and as a team defender. 4 rings says a lot as well. Not to mention DPOY awards.Umm, don't let the truth get in the way of his ridiculous post.
Only a moron would thing that Duncan was a better defensive player than one of the best defensive players (and all time shot blocker) in league history.
Only in San Antonio will you find people who think Duncan is a better defender than Olajuwon.
FWIW, Olajuwon's 2 DPOY awards trump Duncan's 0.
And in terms of defense, being the all-time leader in blocks and top 10 in steals is more impressive than 4 rings.
"In my 20 years in the NBA, Duncan is the best big to play the game," says former Houston Rockets coach Jeff Van Gundy. " O'Neal always had the benefit of a dominant perimeter player, from [Penny] Hardaway to [Kobe] Bryant to [Dwyane] Wade. Duncan has had very good players, but he's never had that dominant player, so that's why I give him the edge."
"Since the ABA/NBA merger, only four stars have been that consistently successful for a 10-year span: Bird, Magic, MJ and Shaq ... although I hesitate to put Shaq on that level because he's had six different teams get swept over the course of his career. But that's the list. Superstars like Kareem (nine playoff wins TOTAL in the four seasons before Magic arrived), David Robinson (never made a Finals before Duncan arrived), Hakeem Olajuwon (wildly unsuccessful for most of his prime), Patrick Ewing (played in only one Finals in his prime), Charles Barkley (ditto) and Karl Malone (played in four conference finals, never won a le) couldn't match Duncan's winning consistency over a 10-year period. " - Bill Simmons
He's making the comparison between Duncan and Shaq.
In 2005, Jordan said that if he had to construct a team, he'd pick Bird as PF and Olajuwon as Center.
When you talk about winning consistency, you're referring to caliber of team, not individual player.
What part of "In my 20 years in the NBA, Duncan is the best big to play the game," don't you understand?
He was just implying Shaq and Duncan were the best two big men in the past 20 years and he'd give Duncan the nod over Shaq.
In all honesty I'd take Shaq's prime 1998-2003 over Hakeem's prime too. But that's a totally different argument.
He was referring to the superstars ability to carry a team since the ABA/NBA merger.
*Hence the names he named, not the teams*
Anyway that was fun for me to dig and relive the greatness of the best power forward to ever play the game.
Fact is all of these posts are all opinions, some are valid, some are not.
What we do know is that Duncan and Olajuwon both are in the top 5-7 ALL-Time big men to ever play the game.
It's arguable anyway you look at it.
Rockets fans will choose their beloved Olajuwon and Spurs fans of course will take Duncan's side.
Both were two of the greatest to ever lace them up. Pretty sure we can agree with that.
That's an illogical inference.
Let me illustrate. In 2005, when Jordan said he'd pick Bird as the PF of his team, the other PF's he named were Worthy, Malone, Barkley, and Oakley. Does that mean he doesn't consider Duncan an all-time great as of Sept 2005? Absolutely not.
You also dont know whether or not JVG is limiting his selections to players whose entire careers were encompassed from 1990-2010.
When you talk about winning consistency, you're referring to team winning consistency which leads to debates about supporting casts.
No Rockets fan will take Duncan whereas some older Spurs fans will take Olajuwon.
What does that tell you?
If that's the case, that tells me I don't agree with their opinion.
There's no proven facts out there as evidence to illustrate which player is the better player, besides career achievements and individual accolades which Duncan has the upper hand.
If people want to use any other references it will be tied back to an opinion, not a fact.
Last edited by MaNu4Tres; 05-25-2010 at 02:11 AM.
And you brought the only valid argument out of all the Rocket trolls, in regards of how Olajuwon won 2 of his ALL NBA Defensive First team in a very compe ive field with Robinson, Mutombo, Ewing and Mourning. And how there's only one spot available for first team.
I'll give you that and because of that I'll credit Olajuwons second teams as first teams as well. Which would give him 9 total. Which is still equal to the amount of first team's Duncan received (9).
And if you want to point to all-time career totals (in blocks, rebounds, points what have you). That isn't as valid due to how big of a part the Spurs have used their bench during the Duncan era. Limiting his minutes, consequently limiting his totals and averages in many categories. ( Duncan played a lot less than Hakeem in a 13 year span.)
Last edited by MaNu4Tres; 05-25-2010 at 02:24 AM.
/\/\
As a matter of fact in their first 13 years in the league Olajuwon played 1,256 more minutes than Duncan total, which for example equated to 2,605 more shot attempts for Olajuwon during this span.
Duncan>>>>>>>>Olajuwon.
C'mon now. Stick to Olajuwon over Robinson. You can have that one but by no means was Hakeem a better player than Tim Duncan. no ing way.
Very well, but that still doesn't address the glaring discrepancy in compe ion. Aside from Garnett, there were no consistently dominant defensive forwards. Sure, Kirilenko had a few good years. So did Artest. But they disappeared from the limelight as quickly as they came.
So I still find Olajuwon's 9 first/second team placements to be a greater accomplishment than Duncan's b/c Olajuwon had to do it against far greater compe ion.
So divide career totals by minutes played.
By that method, Duncan averaged 0.06 blocks per minute. Olajuwon averaged 0.09. That's 50% more in favor of Olajuwon.
For steals, Duncan averaged 0.02 per minute. Olajuwon averaged 0.05. That 150% more in favor of Olajuwon.
For rebounds, Duncan averaged 0.32 per minute. Olajuwon averaged 0.31. So they're about the same (Duncan has a slight edge).
Steals is a pretty irrelevant stat in regards of a big man's responsibilities.
I'll give you blocks, but you can't tell me Olajuwon was the better big man and base that solely on the steals advantage.
Besides Duncan has Olajuwon on MVP's, Final MVP's (both individual awards) and championships (4). (The most important categories to rank a player.)
How is steals irrelevant? It's an important part of defense.Steals is a pretty irrelevant stat in regards of a big man's responsibilities.
I'll give you blocks, but you can't tell me Olajuwon was the better big man and base that solely on the steals advantage.
Especially considering Duncan has Olajuwon on MVP's, Final MVP's (both individual awards) and championships (4). (The most important categories to rank a player.)
So your opinion is that since it's beyond a big man's responsibilities, Olajuwon's superiority in it should be ignored?
I look at it the other way. When a big man excels in something that big men normally dont excel it, it should be celebrated, not ignored. Should we ignore Dirk's 3 point shooting since 3 pt shooting isnt normally a big man's responsibility?
So Olajuwon is better at blocks. And steals. And on par in rebounds......so he's a better defensive player than Duncan.
And at the very worst, Olajuwon is on par with Duncan offensively.
So if they're equal offensively, and Olajuwon is superior defensively, then that means Olajuwon is a better overall player.
And in regards to the MVPs, Olajuwon played in a more compe ive era. Before you argue this, think about Olajuwon's contemporaries (Bird, Jordan, Magic, Robinson, Karl Malone, Charles Barkley).
And yes, Duncan has more rings, but again, that goes to supporting casts. Who knows how Olajwon's career would've progressed had his teammates not been derailed by injuries and drugs.
So then by your theory of Garnett being the only compe ion for Duncan, I can use the same theory for Olajuwon's first 3 All NBA Defensive First team selections and his 1st Alll Defensive 2nd team selection because his only compe ion was ...........Mark Eaton.
Last edited by MaNu4Tres; 05-25-2010 at 02:58 AM.
Buddy
Steals and blocks don't tell the whole story on the defensive end of the court.
Duncan was perhaps the best positional defender the league has seen the past 20-30 years. Whether if it was precise timing on the hedge on the pick and roll or the precise weak side rotation to defer a shot around the basket. Position on defensive, whether if its recovering from a show on the hedge on the pick and roll or the ability to position one-self to rotate over on time to contest are all key attributes for a defensive player, which Duncan had. These attributes earned him ALL-NBA Defensive honors year in and year out regardless of the amount of steals he got.
Get a clue man.
And Ewing and Bol. Before you laugh at Bol, keep in mind the guy averaged between 3 and 5 blocks per game for the bulk of his career in the 80's. But if it makes you feel better, you can make an argument that 4 of Olajuwon's 9 (first team + second team) were "gimmes".So then by your theory of Garnett being the only compe ion for Duncan, I can use the same theory for Olajuwon's first 3 All NBA Defensive First team elections and his 1st Alll Defensive 2nd team election because his only compe ion was ......
That still doesnt change the fact that at least 6 of Duncan's 8 (first team) were "gimmes". And lets not forget that in one of those years, 6 players made the defensive first team, and there were 3 forwards selected.
steals are also ing important!! Don't tell me, you think olajuwon was'mt a good roation guy? lols..srsly dude, I'm a bigtime spurs fan but your homerism is getting ing ugly.
LOL @ steals not being important..LOLS
Get a clue?
Duncan may have been a better positional defender than Olajuwon, but Olajuwon's superior athleticism and quickness allowed him to compensate.
Olajuwon also got those all-nba defensive honors, but he also got the DPOY twice. And he's top 10 in steals. And he's the leading shot blocker. And as I've proven, he got his steals/blocks at a much higher rate than Duncan.
Duncan does everything a great defender should do. Olajuwon just did more.
I'm not just ignoring steals. Positional defense is extremely more vital of an attribute for a big man to covet than steals. IMO
Which is why Duncan was chosen on All-NBA Defensive Teams every year he's been in the league. It didn't matter if he got 1 steal a year or 2,000. It wasn't nearly as valued as the presence Duncan had in his awareness defensively, putting himself in near perfect position possession after possession.
Wekko so after much deliberation we have established that you think Olajuwon was better in his prime. That's your opinion and I'll respect it.
But unfortunately after much deliberation on my part, I have to disagree.
Duncan was the better player in his prime, in my opinion.
Sorry bro nothing you've stated or brought to my attention has changed my mind even the slightest.
That's a faulty assumption. We've already discussed how defensively weak Duncan's contemporaries were. Duncan's consistent inclusion in the all-nba teams could result from his inferior peers just as easily as it could result from his stellar defense.
Btw, are you implying that Olajuwon had poor positional defense?
That's b/c you didn't enter the discussion with an open mind. You came in with your predetermined opinion and knew you wouldn't change it.
I don't want to be mean, but I've countered all of your arguments and invalidated your points. The only thing driving your position now is homerism. But there's nothing wrong with being a fan.
Will I'm a pretty stubborn individual as well.
I could use the same ammo about Olajuwon's contemporaries from 1984-1989 and even til 1993 til Mutombo/Mourning/O'Neal came in the picture.
No I'm implying Duncan's positional defense was so superior that steals or blocks was pretty irrelevant in explaining how dominant player he was on the defensive end. At least that's what the coaches and premiere analysts thought voting him on ALL-NBA Defensive teams every year he's been in the league.
There's only so many possessions throughout the course of a game. And every time down the floor you can get stops by contesting effectively and positioning yourself in the right place at the right time. Which Duncan was the best at year in and year out. Even if a player averaged 5 blocks a game, it still doesn't equate to being as valuable as a defensive player of Duncan's stature because of his ability to be in position and contest efficient enough to get a stop anytime down the floor.
Olajuwon was a great defender, but so was Duncan.
Olajuwon had the slight edge as a shot blocker, but I'd say Duncan had the edge on him in defensive awareness and positioning one self to get stops.
Last edited by MaNu4Tres; 05-25-2010 at 03:39 AM.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote