"If we cannot put solar power plants in the Mojave desert...

[MiamiHeat]

Capitalism is better than other forms currently or in the past, yes, but I'm looking at it in a bigger context.

There are many evils and we are far from where we should be going.

[DarrinS]

atomic weapons and moon shots aside....

The government can do things that private investors can't:

Spend money on basic research that might be of limited profitability in the short term.

The govt used no private contractors to produce atomic weapons, rockets, or the internet.

[MiamiHeat]

The govt used no private contractors to produce atomic weapons, rockets, or the internet.

^^^^^ Admitting the government has successfully organized and allocated funds, leading to wonderful results

[DarrinS]

Capitalism is better than other forms currently or in the past, yes, but I'm looking at it in a bigger context.

There are many evils and we are far from where we should be going.

Your posts in this thread are silly. If there's money to be made in alternative energy, venture capitalists will be all over that . Isn't that what T. Boone Pickens was doing with his wind farm?

[MiamiHeat]

Your posts in this thread are silly. If there's money to be made in alternative energy, venture capitalists will be all over that . Isn't that what T. Boone Pickens was doing with his wind farm?

Maybe if you read them before making silly statements....

I seem to recall saying

"I do not support wind or solar panels. they are failures"


http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/show...&postcount=160

[MiamiHeat]

also, I DO NOT CARE if companies spend 10000000000 dollars on Research and development.

THEY ARE PRIVATE COMPANIES, with the SOLE INTEREST OF INCREASING PROFITS.

Therefore, the world CANNOT depend on them to advance scientific endeavors...

ESPECIALLY not a humanitarian achievement that would yield no profit, but be of GREAT Value to the human race.


That has to be done by benevolent and generous wealthy men (lol), random genius in their spare time in their garages (once every 100 years), or the government.

[DarrinS]

also, I DO NOT CARE if companies spend 10000000000 dollars on Research and development.

THEY ARE PRIVATE COMPANIES, with the SOLE INTEREST OF INCREASING PROFITS.

So, you think there's no profit to be made in ENERGY?

At some point in history, don't you think an offshore drilling platform was a scientific achievement? Don't you think a nuclear reactor was a scientific achievement? Do you think defense contractors work for free?

[MiamiHeat]

So, you think there's no profit to be made in ENERGY?

At some point in history, don't you think an offshore drilling platform was a scientific achievement? Don't you think a nuclear reactor was a scientific achievement? Do you think defense contractors work for free?

DarrinS,

the fail is so large with you, that I am losing interest in communicating with you.

I have to point things out to you every time, and you never learn, and you ignore the parts where you get shown how wrong you were.


1) Nuclear reactors were a product of humble scientists and universities.

2) Defense contractors are funded by who? That's right, the government. The government TELLS THEM what to develop, and they are paid to do it. This is the DIRECTION we are talking about in this thread. Government directed-funded research. Thanks for proving my point.

3) Off-shore drilling..? sigh. You can't be serious.

[DarrinS]

DarrinS,

the fail is so large with you, that I am losing interest in communicating with you.

I have to point things out to you every time, and you never learn, and you ignore the parts where you get shown how wrong you were.


1) Nuclear reactors were a product of humble scientists and universities.

2) Defense contractors are funded by who? That's right, the government. The government TELLS THEM what to develop, and they are paid to do it. This is the DIRECTION we are talking about in this thread. Government directed-funded research. Thanks for proving my point.

3) Off-shore drilling..? sigh. You can't be serious.

Short list of private renewable energy companies

Abengoa, SA BMAD ABG - Solar thermal
Aleo solar FWB AS1 2006 Photovoltaics
Alternative Energy, LTD LSE ALR 2003 Renewables
Americas Wind Energy Corporation OTC AWNE 2006 Wind
Applied Solar, INC NASDAQ - 2005 Photovoltaics [1]
Ascent Solar Technologies, INC NASDAQ ASTI 2006 Photovoltaics
Aventine Renewable Energy NYSE AVR - Bioenergy
Canadian Hydro Developers, INC TSX KHD 2001 Hydro
Canadian Solar, INC NASDAQ CSIQ 2006 Photovoltaics
Centrosolar Group, AG FWB C3O 2005 Photovoltaics
Ceramic Fuel Cells, LTD ASX CFU 2004 Fuel Cells
China Sunergy Co, LTD NASDAQ CSUN 2007 Photovoltaics
Clipper Windpower, PLC LSE CWP 2005 Wind
Conergy, AG FWB CGY - Photovoltaics
Clenergen Corporation, OTC CRGE - Biomass
Dyesol, LTD ASX DYE 2005 Photovoltaics
DayStar Technologies, INC NASDAQ DSTI 2004 Photovoltaics
DelSolar Co, LTD - 3599 - Photovoltaics
ersol Solar Energy, AG FWB ES6 - Photovoltaics
Eaga, PLC LSE EAGA 2007 Energy Efficiency
EarthFirst Canada, INC TSX EF 2007 Wind
Energy Conversion Devices, INC NASDAQ ENER 1993 Photovoltaics
E-ton Solar Technology Co, LTD - 3452 - Photovoltaics
Evergreen Solar, INC NASDAQ ESLR 2000 Photovoltaics
EnviroMission, LTD ASX EVM 2005 Solar Thermal
EDP Renováveis, SA BVLP EDPR 2007 Wind [2]
Finavera Renewables, INC TSX FVR 2006 Renewables
First American Scientific Corp. OTCBB FASC 1995 Biomass
First Solar Holding, LLC NASDAQ FSLR 2007 Photovoltaics
Gintech Energy Corporation - 3514 2007 Photovoltaics
Good Energy Group, PLC LSE GEGP - Renewables
Green Energy Holding Corporation OTC GEYO 2007 Renewables
Green Plains Renewable Energy, INC NASDAQ GPRE 2007 Ethanol
GT Solar International, INC NASDAQ SOLR 2008 Solar Mfg Equipment
Iberdrola Renovables, SA BMAD IBR December 2007 Wind, Solar, Biomass
Innergex Renewable Energy, INC TSX INE 2007 Renewables
JA Solar Holdings Co, LTD NASDAQ JASO 2007 Photovoltaics
Kedco PLC AIM KED 2008 Bio Energy
Jetion Solar Holdings LTD AIM JHL 2007 Photovoltaics
LDK Solar Co, LTD NYSE LDK 2007 Photovoltaics
Neo Solar Power Corporation - 3576 - Photovoltaics
Nevada Geothermal Power, INC OTC NGLPF 2005 Geothermal
Nordex, AG FWB NDX 2001 Wind
Phoenix Solar, AG FWB PS4 2004 Photovoltaics
Polaris Geothermal, INC TSX GEO 2002 Geothermal
Pristine Power, INC TSX PRX 2002 Cogeneration
PV Crystalox Solar, PLC LSE PVCS 2007 Photovoltaics
Q-Cells, AG FWB QCE - Photovoltaics
ReneSolar, LTD AIM SOL 2007 Photovoltaics
Renewable Energy Corporation, ASA OSX REC 2006 Photovoltaics
Renewable Energy Generation, LTD LSE RWE 2005 Renewables
Renewable Energy Holdings, PLC LSE REH 2005 Renewables
Renewable Energy Resources, INC OTC RWER 2008 Hydro
Renewagy, AS OMX REN - Renewables
REpower Systems, AG FWB RPW 2006 Wind
Run of River Power, INC TSX ROR 2005 Hydro
SAG Solarstrom, AG FWB SAG - Photovoltaics
Solar-Fabrik, AG FWB SFX - Photovoltaics
Solarfun Power Holdings Co, LTD NASDAQ SOLF 2006 Photovoltaics
SolarWorld, AG FWB SWV - Photovoltaics
Solco, LTD ASX SOO 2000 Solar Thermal
SunPower Corporation NASDAQ SPWR - Photovoltaics
Suntech Power NYSE STP - Photovoltaics
Tiger Renewable Energy, LTD OTC TGRW - Ethanol
Trina Solar, LTD NASDAQ TSL 2006 Photovoltaics
Verenium Corporation NASDAQ VRNM - Biofuels
Vestas Wind Systems, AS OMX VWS - Wind
WaterFurnace Renewable Energy, INC TSX WFI 2001 Geothermal
Western Geopower Corporation TSX WGP 2001 Geothermal
Western Wind Energy Corporation TSX WND 2001 Wind
Windflow Technology, LTD NZAX WTL 2001 Wind
Yingli Green Energy Holding Co, LTD

[MiamiHeat]

So you admit you were incorrect about Nuclear Reactors?

yes or no

[DarrinS]

So you admit you were incorrect about Nuclear Reactors?

yes or no

Huh? What did I say about nuclear reactors that you think is incorrect?

I'm all for more nuclear power.

[MiamiHeat]

Huh? What did I say about nuclear reactors that you think is incorrect?

[DarrinS]

[RandomGuy]

We should use nuclear power. It's the greenies that hate it.

Please explain to me where we would store the waste and how you propose to ram a waste storage facility down some community's throat.

Then guarantee me 100% that no fuel or waste shipment will ever fall victim to 12-20 guys with automatic weapons, high explosives, and who aren't afraid to die, and whose only desire is to spread that waste/fuel over as wide a metropolitan area as possible and expose as many people as possible.

Then be honest and triple the costs of any construction, so as to be inline with historical cost overruns at nuclear plants, and do a solid cost analysis comparing output and total costs per kWh to an alternative source of energy.

[DarrinS]

Please explain to me where we would store the waste and how you propose to ram a waste storage facility down some community's throat.

Then guarantee me 100% that no fuel or waste shipment will ever fall victim to 12-20 guys with automatic weapons, high explosives, and who aren't afraid to die, and whose only desire is to spread that waste/fuel over as wide a metropolitan area as possible and expose as many people as possible.

Then be honest and triple the costs of any construction, so as to be inline with historical cost overruns at nuclear plants, and do a solid cost analysis comparing output and total costs per kWh to an alternative source of energy.

France has something like 60 nuclear reactors that supply over 75% of their energy. They also have the highest Muslim population of any Euro country, so I hope they have good security.

[RandomGuy]

battleships nuclear reactors go 30 years before refueling

however,

standard nuclear power plants go about 3 years before refueling.

still a long ing time.

scientific progress is taking a back seat to commercial profitability. it has to end...

Construction cost overruns have nothing to do with scientific progress.

It has to do with people lying about how much it really will cost. SA has some pretty recent and concrete examples where the people wanted to expand the nukes were pretty much lying and deliberately concealing the ultimate price tag.

I am not against nukes per se, but I see some very definite drawbacks that are not being addressed from a practical standpoint.

If you can address those drawbacks, then fine, massively ramp up nuclear power.

Until then, the best data that I have found suggests that the costs far outweigh the benefits. Nothing I have seen here yet has addressed that.

[RandomGuy]

France has something like 60 nuclear reactors that supply over 75% of their energy. They also have the highest Muslim population of any Euro country, so I hope they have good security.

France is smaller than the US, and consumes about 60% as much electricity per capita. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ty_consumption

I hope they do have good security.

A similar % in the US would require the construction of, conservatively, about 400 new nuclear power plants, and more in the range of about 700, given realistic assumptions.

The US would require ten times the number of reactors that the French do.

Quite the security challenge to guard all those fuel/waste shipments, yes or no?

[RandomGuy]

Assuming the given "every 3 years" fueling for a modern commercial reactor, 700 reactors would require 233 fuel shipments per year, with a similar number of waste shipments. Add security for those, as well as the kinds of security required for the reactors themselves.

$$$$$ and a major cost not associated with renewables.

I am all for some expansion of nuclear capacity, if only to get some good data as to the real costs per kWh, so we can make some good choices using better data.

I am willing to accept some risks of suicide attacks on fuel/waste shipments, but I will be the first to admit that carries with it some pretty catastrophic consequences should there be one failure.

What no one has explained to me yet is where we store the waste. Yes, I know about yucca mountain. Do we sweep aside the lawsuits of the local communities, forgo their rights so that we can have nuclear power?

[boutons_deux]

check the price of kilowatt hour in Europe vs USA, residential and commercial

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/elecprih.html

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/elecprii.html

[Wild Cobra]

check the price of kilowatt hour in Europe vs USA, residential and commercial

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/elecprih.html

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/elecprii.html

What is the price when you remove the taxes? Those prices include tax, and Europe has a heavy consumption tax burden.

[Wild Cobra]

France has something like 60 nuclear reactors that supply over 75% of their energy. They also have the highest Muslim population of any Euro country, so I hope they have good security.

Reactor grade fuel is not weapons grade. If you can convert it to weapons grade, then you can start with the raw ore.

[boutons_deux]

"What is the price when you remove the taxes?"

what does it matter?

the prices influence consumption no matter what the tax policy component is, like Euro gasoline is already heavily "carbon taxed" to force down transport consumption.

I don't think there is TVA on, eg, French electricity, just like in TX there are more sales tax breaks than there are state sales tax revenues.

[MiamiHeat]

What no one has explained to me yet is where we store the waste. Yes, I know about yucca mountain. Do we sweep aside the lawsuits of the local communities, forgo their rights so that we can have nuclear power?

How about at the bottom of the ocean in the marianna trench?

or maybe drill holes in the ocean's crust and bury them down there?

or what happens when you throw this waste into an active volcano? will the lava melt it, disperse it to small quan ies of radiation or even destroy it?

[Wild Cobra]

"What is the price when you remove the taxes?"

what does it matter?

You gave the prices. Are you saying you made a useless posting? Why give comparative pricing if it's in a manner that doesn't matter? A real comparison would be the cost of producing the power. Not the cost of buying the power.

[Wild Cobra]

How about at the bottom of the ocean in the marianna trench?

or maybe drill holes in the ocean's crust and bury them down there?

or what happens when you throw this waste into an active volcano? will the lava melt it, disperse it to small quan ies of radiation or even destroy it?

I say we pelletize it and drop the pellets in a big oil well.

They will sink to the bottom of the reservoir. If by some chance the pellets broke down, they are already in a polluted region that is contained. Hydrocarbons don't retain the radiation, so pumping the oil is still no problem.