Kobe vs Duncan

[Pelicans78]

Playing with Shaq hurt Kobe in a sense because he was forced to be the 2nd option for so many years. Who knows what kind of success Kobe could have had if he was the 1st option for most of his career. He's proven to win championships as the guy. Maybe he would be regarded higher. But unfortunately, playing with Shaq hindered some of his legacy.

[cobbler]

Final MVP's are decided by the team and Magic was able to carry the load during Kareem's injury is why he got that one..

Of course. But again, even though Kareem was the season MVP and go to guy for the playoffs with the exception of the missed game due to injury, nobody says Magic really only has 4 relevent rings. Or because Worthy carried them in 88 I never hear Magic only has 3 relevent rings.

The whole #1 option thing is just garbage IMO. It's not like we are talking the difference between a scrub player and a star. Discrediting Kobe's first 3 rings because he had a great teamate is just as absurd as discrediting Magic or Kareem for theres. You could say the same for many teams.

Doesn't stop his jersey from being the most sold in the NBA. However other GOATs also didn't get involved with rape, nasty feuds like he had with Shaq, and you're surfing on spurstalk.com where LA is basically enemy no. 1..

He's very popular no doubt. But his haters are rabid in the efforts to discredit him. Surely you can see this? There is a huge list of discretions from many star players. Magic's sexcapades. MJ's gambling and history of hanging with thugs etc etc. Come on, the NBA is not lacking for anti role models.

During that Shaq-era PJ also called Kobe "uncoachable" and was willing to trade him since that locker room was so crazy and Shaq was the more important piece at the time IIRC..

And thank god Dr. Buss saw it the other way and in retrospect made the correct decision. PJ also came back tail tucked tightly. I'm sure his animosity in the book had nothing to do with being fired by Dr. Buss after he chose Kobe over Shaq. Right?

Whenever people do talk about the stacked teams like Magic's and Bird's its usually brought up that they had incredible teammates and some of the most talent on a roster the NBA has seen. .

Exactly my point. We don't hear that the Laker team was stacked, just that Shaq was the dominant one and Kobe rode his coattails. It's a double standard that nobody has had to face like Kobe does.

But yea, basketball is of course a team game and Kobe was instrumental in the 3-peat and not really interchangeable. Doesn't change that he didn't have as much of an impact as Shaq and by a substantial margin in at least two of the three championship years. Or that Shaq performed better in the championship finals.

Again, I have no problem acknowledging Shaqs dominance. He was a freak of nature not unlike Lebron today and unstoppable. He deserves all the credit he gets for the championships he HELPED bring to the Lakers. My point is you just cannot disregard Kobe's importance and act like he only has 2 because of it. Hey was a KEY component and neither get rings without each other.

[Pelicans78]

Now Kobe has been better the last couple of seasons and will likely continue to be better perhaps allowing him to completely surpass Duncan when its all said and done.

[cobbler]

Kobe's talent should never be discredited. I don't think many would argue who is more talented between Duncan and Kobe. Basketball is about team and winning and this is where Tim passes Kobe.

By the time 2000 rolls around the Lakers are starting the next dynasty. Shaq is 28 and Kobe 22. Three years in and three les later this isn't enough for Kobe. He has bought into the hype of being the next Jordan and deferring to Shaq or allowing Shaq to take more credit is more than Kobe can take. He chases Shaq out in '04 and along with it more les. The alternative here is to exude a little humility and recognize that at some point he would be the go to guy and Shaq would recognize and embrace it. He couldn't do that. In the interim the Lakers are mediocre for 5 years. He threatens to walk because he can't take the mediocrity and suddenly the Lake show gets Gasol. Along this journey he has a rape accusation and throws Shaq under the bus for cheating on his wife.

Duncan on the other hand has exhibited loyalty to his team franchise and city. Has always played with the best interest of the team ahead of his own. Has brought 4 les to a town as the best player on his team. He has exuded class and a committment to winning over personal glory at every step along the way.

Kobe is the better athlete Tim is the better basketball player.

After all that has gone on since you still believe this? The fact that Kobe, Dr. Buss, and Shaq himself have gone on record as saying that it just wasn't the case means nothing? Shaq's continued history of burning bridges with every team he has played on sheds no further light? Only Kobe asking to be traded because he wanted to win and the Lakers werent fulfilling their promise gets airplay? Come on.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

[TheMACHINE]

What a waste of thread space. Noone cares about Duncan outside of Spurstalk. How many times did I hear Duncan compared to anyone this year?! Answer: NONE.

Good night.

[tdunk21]

Kobe's talent should never be discredited. I don't think many would argue who is more talented between Duncan and Kobe. Basketball is about team and winning and this is where Tim passes Kobe.

By the time 2000 rolls around the Lakers are starting the next dynasty. Shaq is 28 and Kobe 22. Three years in and three les later this isn't enough for Kobe. He has bought into the hype of being the next Jordan and deferring to Shaq or allowing Shaq to take more credit is more than Kobe can take. He chases Shaq out in '04 and along with it more les. The alternative here is to exude a little humility and recognize that at some point he would be the go to guy and Shaq would recognize and embrace it. He couldn't do that. In the interim the Lakers are mediocre for 5 years. He threatens to walk because he can't take the mediocrity and suddenly the Lake show gets Gasol. Along this journey he has a rape accusation and throws Shaq under the bus for cheating on his wife.


Duncan on the other hand has exhibited loyalty to his team franchise and city. Has always played with the best interest of the team ahead of his own. Has brought 4 les to a town as the best player on his team. He has exuded class and a committment to winning over personal glory at every step along the way.

Kobe is the better athlete Tim is the better basketball player.

very well said

[tdunk21]

What a waste of thread space. Noone cares about Duncan outside of Spurstalk. How many times did I hear Duncan compared to anyone this year?! Answer: NONE.

Good night.

duncan is not compared to anyone coz he is the best at the position he plays....just like MJ is not compared to anyone, everyone is compared to MJ....this guy is a joke.....

[TheMACHINE]

duncan is not compared to anyone coz he is the best at the position he plays....just like MJ is not compared to anyone, everyone is compared to MJ....this guy is a joke.....

Is Duncan a top 10 player of all time?

[tdunk21]

Is Duncan a top 10 player of all time?

name one PF in the top 10 players of all time.......there are so many sites with different top 10 all time players.....timmy does deserve a spot in top 10 coz who would have thought that a small market team like spurs will win 4 rings and thats all because of this guy....

[Mikesatx]

After all that has gone on since you still believe this? The fact that Kobe, Dr. Buss, and Shaq himself have gone on record as saying that it just wasn't the case means nothing? Shaq's continued history of burning bridges with every team he has played on sheds no further light? Only Kobe asking to be traded because he wanted to win and the Lakers werent fulfilling their promise gets airplay? Come on.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

If that wasn't the case then what was? Have the three agreed to lay it on Shaq? What bridges has he burned? I agree that after the Miami le he didn't deliver for the Heat, Suns and last year the Cavs but is that burning bridges or just not living up to expectations? What promise are we talking about? Kobe signs a max contract and the sole role of any front office is to build the best team they can, that is a given. If you don't have pieces to trade or don't draft well then you fail. Happens to teams all the time. Kobe wanted it both ways and at the end of the day he got it.

[cobbler]

If that wasn't the case then what was? Have the three agreed to lay it on Shaq? What bridges has he burned? I agree that after the Miami le he didn't deliver for the Heat, Suns and last year the Cavs but is that burning bridges or just not living up to expectations? What promise are we talking about? Kobe signs a max contract and the sole role of any front office is to build the best team they can, that is a given. If you don't have pieces to trade or don't draft well then you fail. Happens to teams all the time. Kobe wanted it both ways and at the end of the day he got it.

No... all three agreed that it was Dr. Buss who made the decision and it had nothing to do with Kobe and Shaqs differences. It was a business decision and the correct one. Do some research. He ragged on the Magic and his teammates there after he left. His issues with Penny are well known. His derogatory comments about every aspect of the Lakers organization are well do ented. Nash had issues with Shaq. Give him time and no doubt the Cavs comments will surface. He's petty. Ask Gilbert!

The promise was to ACTIVELY persue obtaining talent. They balked for 2 years and brought in crap. Unless you consider Smush and Kwame good moves.

He got it... because he forced the issue. He should have done so behind closed doors but none the less... his move worked. I'm glad for it.

[JamStone]

Mike, while I don't agree with every thing in the post you wrote, I only wanted to address your last line which essentially was the conclusion to the post:

Kobe is the better athlete Tim is the better basketball player.

What you wrote to make that conclusion didn't really support that conclusion. What you wrote more so concluded this:

Kobe is the better basketball talent, while Tim is the better person.

or

Kobe is the better basketball player, while Tim is the better teammate.

That seemed more what your post got at than what you actually concluded.

[Roddy Beaubois]

A better individual career? Duncan easily. More les as the #1 option, more Finals MVPs, more regular seasons MVPs, more all-NBA team selections, more impact on both sides of the floor.

Now team success? Bryant easily. He's had the GOAT coach and the most dominant player ever to help bolster his resume, and now has a stacked team to continue to do so. He's a great player, but he doesn't impact the game as much as Duncan.

you Kobe nut suckers.

I think Duncan > Kobe career wise too, but you are an obvious Duncan nut sucker. He had a great coach and great teams, yet you seem to imply Duncan did it all by himself. Duncan had two very good players in Tony and Manu, and many other good pieces like Bowen. He never played with a player like Shaq, but he was on staaaaaked teams that some superstars never had in their prime.

[TheSpursFNRule]

I don't get why people keep saying Kobe will surpass Duncan. Kobe himself has admitted Duncan is the best PF of all time and most will say Duncan is the best PF of all time. That is Duncan's legacy. How would Kobe(a SG) surpass Duncan's legacy as the greatest PF of all time.

[Booharv]

So what exactly makes a player the first option of a team over another player? The player that scores more is always the number one option? Problem with the Shaq and Kobe Lakers is that there are very few other examples of championship teams that have had their two best players both in their prime and both having the dominant talent to be number 1 options. Take a look at the last two seasons of the Shaq-Kobe three-peat Lakers.

2000-01 LA Lakers
Regular season
Shaq: 28.7 ppg, 19.2 FGApg
Kobe: 28.5 ppg, 22.2FGApg
Playoffs
Shaq: 30.4 ppg, 21.5 FGApg
Kobe: 29.4 ppg, 22.4 FGApg

2001-02 LA Lakers
Regular season
Shaq: 27.2 ppg, 18.3 FGApg
Kobe: 25.2 ppg, 20.0 FGApg
Playoffs
Shaq: 28.5 ppg, 20.2 FGApg
Kobe: 26.6 ppg, 22.7 FGApg

Yes, Shaq scored more, marginally. Yes, he was more efficient at scoring, since he was making dunks, lay-ups, and short hook shots. And yes, he had better NBA Finals performances. But, if you look at those stats above, it's far from a huge margin between the two as to which was the number one option. Kobe took more shots. The offense was geared towards showcasing both players, rather equally actually. Kobe wasn't a second option on those Lakers teams. The most appropriate way to call it is Shaq was 1A and Kobe was 1B. Kobe was a first option.

It absolutely boggles my mind that people try to twist it so adamantly just to discredit Kobe.

It's not that complicated imo. Include their numbers in the three-peat Finals. Shaq averaged like 35/15 in the Finals. When you have a teammate averaging 35/15 in the Finals it kind of eases the burden. Much like having a nuclear bomb kind of eased our invasion of Japan. Kobe was definitely essential to those championships. But comparing Tony and Manu to a prime Shaq like you did earlier is flattering to any Spurs fan but absurd. Shaq was dominating like few big men ever have, now you could argue that he was aided by a historically ty era of centers, but that's another story.

The least number of points Shaq scored in those three Finals series is 28. The Least. And that's the game he had the near Quad double. He never shot lower than 52% from the field in any game.

To further display the point I took 2 minutes to make this pic of Shaq's numbers in the Three-peat Finals from Basketball Reference.



What's the worst game in the Indiana series? It's probably the game he only scored 33 and 13 but shot 62.5%. Or maybe when he only shot 52% but had 36 and 21. As a matter of fact what's the worst game he had in those Three Finals period? To me it's down to either the 30 and 12 with 4 blocks he put on Philly on 55% shooting or the 29 and 13 with 5 blocks on 55.6% shooting he also put on the Sixers.

The fact of the matter is every game he played he put up straight dominant numbers in those three Finals. Here's a ty analogy to drive the point home: If winning an NBA championship is like beating the original Contra, having that Shaq on your team is like having the up up down down etc. cheat code.

[mingus]

if Kobe wins one more Final's MVP he'll be right there with Timmy, maybe even better because of his more championships. however, you can't be ahead of someone and not have at least as many Final's mvp's. that is the most important award of them all in terms of measuring who's better than who. so right now i suspect he'll win at least one more Final's mvp and when all is said and done he'll have the better career than Duncan. i don't think Tim has another championship or Finals' MVP left in him. if he does, that's obviously change things.

[JamStone]

I haven't argued Shaq wasn't the better player or wasn't the more dominant player.

From the beginning, my issue had been with the notion of "number one option."

There are some people that choose to discredit Kobe's impact on those championships by saying he wasn't the number one option on the team. I am arguing he shared that status with Shaq, particularly for the 2001 and 2002 les.

I'm not arguing Kobe was better or more dominant than Shaq. Why does that keep coming up? Shaq was more dominant. Shaq was the better player. I've not argued otherwise.

As far as impact, which I didn't even talk about initially, I look at it this way. If you take Shaq off those Lakers teams, they don't win the championship. If you take Kobe off those Lakers teams, they don't win the championship. In that regard, I think both Shaq and Kobe made an impact for those teams that were essential to the success. If you want to go deeper, I can concede that Shaq's impact was more. But I don't think it's by a wide margin as some others do. I think Kobe's emergence as an elite player was just as important for those les as Shaq's dominance was.

[dirk4mvp]

Haven't read the thread because it looks like it's a bunch of re ed laker fans jerking each other off, but if anyone uses Kobe's 5th as a reason for being over Duncan, you can kindly go your mother, cuz Duncan has never choked as hard as Kobe did in game 7, a game/performance that would make Malone and Ewing blush.

[JamStone]

Haven't read the thread because it looks like it's a bunch of re ed laker fans jerking each other off, but if anyone uses Kobe's 5th as a reason for being over Duncan, you can kindly go your mother, cuz Duncan has never choked as hard as Kobe did in game 7, a game/performance that would make Malone and Ewing blush.

Hard to beat Kobe's dreadful shooting performance in game 7 the other night.

But this what I talk about when Kobe gets hated on more than anyone else. Do you actually know how Tim Duncan performed in the last two championship clinching games (2005, 2007)?

People really get on Kobe for poor performances more than any other player.

[xellos88330]

We can compare when both retire.

[dirk4mvp]

Hard to beat Kobe's dreadful shooting performance in game 7 the other night.

But this what I talk about when Kobe gets hated on more than anyone else. Do you actually know how Tim Duncan performed in the last two championship clinching games (2005, 2007)?

People really get on Kobe for poor performances more than any other player.

A sweep of one of the worst teams of all time to make the Finals is a little different than a game 7 of what is supposedly one of the greatest rivalries in sports. And the clinching game in 05 was a far cry from 25%.

People really cover up for Kobe's poor performances more than any other player.

[JamStone]

Lol it's easy to say "the situations were different" after the fact. Did you even know Duncan had a couple of horrible clinching games in the NBA Finals? My guess is that you didn't. And 37% for a big man accustomed to shooting at or around 50% from the field is extremely poor, especially for a guy who is generally so efficient and unselfish when his game is not on and then chucks 27 shots up. No, it's not as bad as Kobe's shooting performance. But my guess is that you didn't even know Duncan had that poor of a game in that game 7.

Because Tim Duncan is a nice guy. Whether you like him or think he's boring, he's still respected. People don't have venom for him like they do for Kobe. So a really poor performance like that does not collect the amount of criticism Kobe gets. People forget it the next day. They don't challenge his Finals MVP. They don't diminish his greatness.

Yes, the situations were different. Still helps prove my point about how much hate Kobe gets no matter what.

[dirk4mvp]

Lol it's easy to say "the situations were different" after the fact. Did you even know Duncan had a couple of horrible clinching games in the NBA Finals? My guess is that you didn't. And 37% for a big man accustomed to shooting at or around 50% from the field is extremely poor, especially for a guy who is generally so efficient and unselfish when his game is not on and then chucks 27 shots up. No, it's not as bad as Kobe's shooting performance. But my guess is that you didn't even know Duncan had that poor of a game in that game 7.

Because Tim Duncan is a nice guy. Whether you like him or think he's boring, he's still respected. People don't have venom for him like they do for Kobe. So a really poor performance like that does not collect the amount of criticism Kobe gets. People forget it the next day. They don't challenge his Finals MVP. They don't diminish his greatness.

Yes, the situations were different. Still helps prove my point about how much hate Kobe gets no matter what.

People hate Kobe so much that ABC went as far as to not show his FG%, but show his FT%. People hate Kobe, the most popular basketball player on the planet

[JamStone]

I guess the world will never know how he shot the ball in game 7 then... unless they actually watched the game, or the post game where the analysts talked about it, or Sports Center when they talked about it, or look at the boxscore on the internet, or read about it in the newspaper the next day, or when they talk to people about how badly he shot the ball... I guess not putting up his FG% on the TV screen for 5 seconds erases it from history right?

Lol did you really just post that?

[Booharv]

I haven't argued Shaq wasn't the better player or wasn't the more dominant player.

From the beginning, my issue had been with the notion of "number one option."

There are some people that choose to discredit Kobe's impact on those championships by saying he wasn't the number one option on the team. I am arguing he shared that status with Shaq, particularly for the 2001 and 2002 les.

I'm not arguing Kobe was better or more dominant than Shaq. Why does that keep coming up? Shaq was more dominant. Shaq was the better player. I've not argued otherwise.

As far as impact, which I didn't even talk about initially, I look at it this way. If you take Shaq off those Lakers teams, they don't win the championship. If you take Kobe off those Lakers teams, they don't win the championship. In that regard, I think both Shaq and Kobe made an impact for those teams that were essential to the success. If you want to go deeper, I can concede that Shaq's impact was more. But I don't think it's by a wide margin as some others do. I think Kobe's emergence as an elite player was just as important for those les as Shaq's dominance was.

The thing is if the Lakers go Chris Wallace-mode and trade David Robinson (Duncan's best teammate in 1999) for Shaq (Kobe's best teammate in 1999) before the 2000 season, which would be an all-time stupid move but still, Duncan has seven championships and Kobe has 2. As a matter of fact, if 2007-09 D-Wade had the Prime Shaq-Cheat code they would probably three-peat. Same with 2007-09 Lebron. I'm fully aware of Shaq's weaknesses. He can't shoot FT's, he took advantage of the fact that centers have sucked a since about the 1994-95 D-Rob, Hakeem, Ewing, Shaq era, and you can't go to him in the clutch since he can't shoot FT's (not pictured anywhere on this list, Shaquille O'Neal: http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm) but with D-Wade to hit the clutch shots and score like crazy for him they would three-peat. Now, Lebron hasn't been as good in the clutch as D-Wade and Kobe (excluding game 7) but I would argue Lebron+Prime Shaq-Cheat code would be so good the first 46 the last 2 wouldn't matter.

Tbh, I think that the fact is a lot of players could three-peat with that Shaq. Pretty much any top 30-35 player imo and maybe even 90-92 Clyde Drexler (Clyde was a close game seven in 1991 versus the Lakers from making three straight Finals), meaning Jordan might not have won until 1993 . That version of Shaq could get a load of great players easy championships.