Actually it is well published that the pistons and kings were talking about swapping Noccioni and the 5th for Prince and the seventh.
I don't overvalue Prince.. You are talking one side of the ball.. Prince is a proven defender.. Jefferson defends .. Jefferson in his role as not being top dog didn't even put up comparable numbers to when Prince was that guy.. I don't care what Jefferson did with the bucks and I'm pretty sure there aren't too many teams out there that do after the crap season that he had.. That's why you got him for nothing.
Seriously you sound like you know absolutely nothing.. your argument is that Prince would have a lesser role in SA and his numbers would reflect that!
When exactly was Prince the second option or go to guy like you are making him out to be.. The highest he's ever been is maybe 3rd.. and that would of been because someone was out with an injury.
why exactly does the fact he is playing on a weak team bring something against prince.. You argue against Prince saying he played on the 6th worse team.. then rave about the numbers that Jefferson put up when he was playing on the 10th worst team.
And at least debate me on what I said.. I never said hill or blair..
And you really aren't paying much attention if you don't even remember what the original trade mentioned said.
"Spurs receive: Tayshaun Prince, Chris Wilcox and Pistons 2011 2nd round pick."
Last edited by ynh; 06-21-2010 at 07:15 AM.
And putting up numbers on the 6th worst team????
Did it even phase you to look at his numbers? His PPG were down.. all that went up was pretty much his FG%.. everything else stayed the same as his past seasons.. which I guess you don't know.. were numbers he had when he was the 4th or 3rd option like he would be on your team.
And it didn't happen, for obvious reasons, because it was stupid to do so, Nocioni is then traded for Dalembert and they still keep their 5th. Clearly, you couldn't get the 5th, what about the rest of the top picks? You wanted a young prospect, that is Hill or Blair. I think it is easily defined because it is probably the only 2 we have that are actually good, unless you want ing James Gist. You also sounded like Prince was the only one who played better at the end of the season when Jefferson also did the same thing, rebound better and played better defense. You also believe that the reason the Bucks traded Jefferson for the package that the Spurs offered is because Jefferson sucks, which clearly isn't the case. They were trying to avoid the luxury tax, and cut payroll, since they were not a playoff team, they got Bowen who they cut and saved 4 million, including luxury tax if they went in it. Further proof was in the pudding when they also refused to match Ramon Sessions' offer sheet of 4 million dollars. Players who put up numbers on scrub teams never had a good reputation of being good players on good teams. Zach Randolph is a prime example of that. And bringing out a 2nd round pick which isn't even in the original post, because it was edited is really good idea to make your point, it isn't there anymore, because it is not included in the proposal in the beginning, simple as that, if you want to complicate things further, go ahead. No one is raving about Jefferson's numbers, by comparison, however, way better than Prince. On the defensive side of the ball, Jefferson is nothing special, but not as bad as you would like to advertise here, so as to overrate one of the 2 Pistons left on the 2004 team, whose defense has clearly declined because he doesn't have Rasheed or prime Ben behind him anymore and his athletic ability has declined. As I have made my point in my previous posts, Prince is not even putting up big numbers on a scrub team. Reiterating the very fact that he is not even a top option on his team and his team sucks, shows how exactly "good" Prince is. Again, I don't like this deal because both contracts are expiring and we give up our 1st rounder. Even if he is better than Jefferson, it is not worth the extra player, which is the 20th pick, that has a chance of making the rotation next year.
You may not like it, but if you actually look at the Defensive Rating of Prince, which is 113, because he doesn't have both prime Wallaces on his team anymore. This shows how good a defensive team the Pistons were in 2004, which Prince was part of. To hype his defensive capabilities up without both Wallaces at this point is ridiculous as he doesn't have the type of defensive impact you are trying to set upon here.
Coming up more, in order to irritate you some more, here is a little tidbit, in the playoff nightmare matchup against LeBron James in 2009, obviously lopsided, Prince got his ass kicked on both defensive side of the ball, and offensive side of the ball. His PER is actually a horrendous -0.4. You got to suck a lot for that to happen.
Last edited by Chieflion; 06-21-2010 at 07:39 AM.
Ok.
1. It is rumored that it was actually Joe that backed out of it.
2. Young prosect.. Actually I was thinking of the French Point guard that you guys seem to rave about.. Soto or something.. I don't know.. and I guess you don't either.
3. He had 17 good games.. The month of March to be exact.. Do yourself a favor.. Go to yahoo sports and look up Prince and Jefferson and do split stats. After you do that compare month to month.. Then come back to me again with that arguement. Look at Princes numbers from feb to the end of the season (these are the games when he wasn't having back problems) now compare that to Jeffersons last three months.. Then.. if you really want to.. come back and debate it more with me.
4. I'm sorry.. You got him because he is an overrated one way player that had almost the worst contract in the NBA (minus the years left.. but rather pay verse productions towards wins.)
5. The Second round pick was in the original post made by the guy with the back of duncan as his avatar.. If it's too hard to follow I was replying to that post..
Oh and Jesus Christ use a ing enter key.. this is so damn hard to read.
6. "No one is raving about Jefferson's numbers, by comparison, however, way better than Prince."
Once again see yahoo sports.. please check out this years numbers for both and then come back and tell me again that Jefferson's numbers, by comparison, are way better than prince's"
And if that is not what you were saying sorry.. as I said the wall of text is a bit hard to read and follow.
7. Prince was never about athletic ability.. once again I completely don't think you have ever actually watched him play much of any. Or you wouldn't be saying that.. he is all about lenght and positioning.
8. Prince was injured half the year.. what was he supposed to be scoring while in a suit? He also still wasn't the first or second option.. Yet his numbers were more efficent.. Again.. Being the third or fourth option. Which is what you would be trading for.. Has it never hit you in the head that this is why Jefferson never worked.. cause he didn't spend his career putting up efficent numbers as the 3rd or 4th option?
I would pretty much say.. strongly say.. if the pistons were dumb enough to call the Spurs and say "hey lets do this.. I give you prince.. you give me jefferson and the 20th" they would do it in a heart beat. Prince is exactly what your team needs out of a small forward that is a third of 4th option.
Lastly.. If you reply.. put some enter keys in there.
First off how is it a lateral swap?
Prince would be a much better fit for the Spurs than Jefferson. I guess you tend to just look at stats and base your opinion off that, but there's so much more than that. It's the same reason why I'd take Bruce Bowen at the age of 35 instead of Jefferson. Yeah Jefferson may have put up pretty stats on the Bucks, but the way he produced the production doesn't necessarily fit into the Spurs system.
Here are just a few issues I brought to light earlier in the thread:
I also believe he is a much better defensive player and his length would help the Spurs out in this aspect especially against the Lakers when Odom plays the 4. He would give the Spurs great versatility not only on the defensive end but on the offensive end as well, as he would be the best option the Spurs have ever had as a small-ball four against the teams that go small.
He is also in his contract year, which should help his preparation going into next season.
Pistons have Daye and Jerebko on the cheap for at least 2 more years at small forward. Factor in that with the fact that Prince is on the other side of 30 and with them being in rebuilding mode. That should tell you them trying to retain Prince after this year is highly unlikely and should make Prince very available.
And for those who are worried about Prince's back. Even though the Pistons were out of contention, the guy still played in all but 2 games since December 27th.
Not saying that Prince's back shouldn't be an issue anymore, but him playing in all those games after the fact should help people feel more optimistic about the guy.
Last edited by MaNu4Tres; 06-21-2010 at 08:00 AM.
I wanted to reply to you just now, but I wanted to see how much ynh hypes his Tayshaun Prince up. Next year would be Jefferson's 2nd year with the Spurs. If we, in that hypothetical scenario, trade for Tayshaun Prince, which will be the first year he joins the team, so he has to learn the system, unlike Jefferson who already would have known the system.
Secondly, the fit you are talking about is again, a hypothetical scenario, whereby Prince actually is used properly.
Look at Jefferson, same guy who you people were claiming he would be the perfect fit to the Spurs' SF woes. Are you kidding me? Now, people want to trade him away because he doesn't fit in to the offense. QUITE FRANKLY, Tayshaun Prince is a player who creates for his teammates, who in actual reality, sets up his teammates more than Jefferson becuase he has the ball in his hands more. The same people claiming Jefferson was even good to fix our issues will be the same people will say that Prince will be the perfect fit for the system. The very same guy who needs to have the ball in his hands, because he needs it to set up other teammates. HOWEVA, the same reason why you people say he will be a good fit is the same reason why he will fail in a system where Parker, Ginobili and Hill will be the ones dominating the ball, setting up other teammates instead. Prince would then be relegated to spot up 3 point shooting and his defense isn't even as stellar as he was in the past. It would be same old story like Jefferson this past season. And you addressed the same issue I am going to address here. The Pistons have Daye and Jerebko as their small forward next season, so why would they trade Prince for Jefferson, both playing the same position. Is Jefferson going to play point guard with the Pistons?
Oh ya, I posted this way just to create more butthurt from ynh, same guy who blasted the Spurs fans from overvaluing their Spurs, then coming here, and overrating Prince's value.
Regarding 3 point shooting, Prince, although averaged 37% for his career, took only 1.9 per game as an average. Jefferson took 2 per game for his career, but only averaging 35%. In Milwaukee, Jefferson averaged close to 40% in 3s. I am not sure what you are complaining about here.
And now regarding post-ups, Jefferson is a better post-up option on the block than Prince, in my opinion, because he is stronger and has the strength to bang down low with his counterparts.
Not only that, we are practically looking at giving away the 20th pick here. I am not seeing any value here that benefits the Spurs. If we were to package our pick with Jefferson's expiring, even if it means getting a contract back which ends in 2012 or 2013, we will get a better player back than Tayshaun Prince.
Regarding young French point guard, Nando De Colo, he is not going to make major contributions to a team and I am not one of those who hype him up.
Last edited by Chieflion; 06-21-2010 at 08:28 AM.
I agree to some extent. Jerebko to me is a very good back up.. Not really starter to me but again things change.
Austin Day could very well be the person to push Prince out.
Thing I don't agree with is that Prince is highly unlikely to be retained after this year (saying of course we don't trade him).. Joe has been quoted quite often in the Detnews and Freep that he sees Prince as the player he would want to keep when moving forward.
Of Course I actually kinda hope he was talking out of his ass.. but he has said that.. And that pretty much is his way of saying he isn't just going to give him away... Which IMO and 99% of Piston fans would have the same reaction as I to the offer. For s and giggles throw the offer in the piston forum.
Actually I thought it was funny as the hype you guys got for picking up Jefferson.. My cousin posts here, Mingus, and I laughed at him all summer telling him that Jefferson doesn't play for D and wouldn't work.. So no.. I am not YOU PEOPLE.
God damn stop referring me to me as YOU PEOPLE.. debate with me not what everyother piston fan has said.. I gave you enough material to work with.
Butthurt? Really? Are you 12?
Yea.. so hows that Parker for Harris and the 3rd pick going for.. Yeah that's quite on the same level as me saying Prince is worth more than the 20th.. way to exagerate.
God damnit stop talking about when he played for the bucks.. Who gives a .. If what you did two years ago ment anything for today everyone would be talking about McGrady being a great FA target. Stop going to the past when Jefferson was with the bucks to justify why he is a better fit than prince now.
I was replying to Manu4Tres, not sure what you meant here by saying YOU PEOPLE, but I definitely wasn't referring to you. No, I don't believe any other player can just drop off like a rock without a good reason, and since you are too slow to realize it, that means that he had a different defined role, and his production dropped, yet he still maintained decent efficiency scoring the ball and rebounded at a higher level since 2007, for Jefferson. I said Parker for Harris and 3rd was a brilliant deal, are you stupid, because it is clearly recorded, while most posters said it was a bad deal, I said it was fantastic. So, I have not only successfully debated your points about Jefferson not working hard, and I have proven I am not a in homer. Ya, and Tayshaun Prince had a back injury a year ago, obviously it still means , no one cares about what he did 2 years ago, when he was the most durable person in the world and playing like the worst player in the league in the last playoffs he played in. You really want to continue this? Jefferson also had his problems last season, which everyone has forgotten that he had a ton of distractions like a called off marriage, back spasms. Again, Jefferson > Prince with his expiring value because his salary is bulky enough to bring back top-tier players as opposed to Prince's expiring value. And we still give up a 20th pick, and you are complaining about your precious 2nd round pick while asking for another stashed prospect. Goddamn, you sure chew off a lot for a "non-homer". Oh, and how is that 5th pick coming? If Joe Dumars backed off on it, he must be a dumber GM than I thought he was. And I have countered so many of your stupid points, yet you completely dismiss them and tell me to look at the stats. I will tell you the main stat. 27-55. Pistons' record in the 2009-2010 season. 4th option on offense: Tayshaun Prince. Tell me how much he sucks now. When you have no other reply than calling out the word "butthurt", with no legitimate Spurs' concerns, and calling us out because Joe Dumars is an idiot, ya, the only reasonable word to describe you would be "butthurt".
Last edited by Chieflion; 06-21-2010 at 08:50 AM.
Dude I've been mentioning that he had a different role many of times.. "Which is what you would be trading for.. Has it never hit you in the head that this is why Jefferson never worked.. cause he didn't spend his career putting up efficent numbers as the 3rd or 4th option?" There you go.
Yea.. That dumb Gm built a team that went to 6 straight confrence finals, won a championship, and took you guys to game seven.. He's pretty dumb right.
Actually you never did debate my points.. every point I made you backed off on and went to what Jefferson did as a buck as an example of why he would be a better as the 3rd of 4th option on your team...
I have statistical proof that he wouldn't be better than prince in the role that you gave Jefferson last year.. Do you? Or are you going to again tell me how Jefferson put up numbers as the first option on the 10th worst team in the league 2 years ago?
And again.. paragraphs.. use them.. helps out the reader.
Answer that question and only that question.. And do it without telling me how Jefferson did two years ago for the bucks..
Do you have any idea the reason why the pistons were 27 and something?
Just curious cause I've now made it through your wall of text and see that you managed to turned that record (which tay played like half the games of) into an indication as to why tay sucks.
What statistical proof? The fact that Prince used the ball more than Richard Jefferson last year and yet produced at a relatively similar level when it comes to points?
Prince Usage Rate: 18.9%
Jefferson Usage Rate: 18.3%
Ya, okay. So, which player used the ball more? I would say Richard Jefferson was able to fit in better than Tayshaun Prince. Only people who are ing about his production are people screaming "14 million, 14 million for this ?" What Tayshaun Prince does as a Piston has absolutely nothing on what he will do as a Spur, since this is what you preached. I mentioned Jefferson's career high for 3 point shooting percentage because QUITE FRANKLY, this is OUTSTANDING.
Spurs fan last off-season: We need someone who can get to the free throw line, and generate points.
Richard Jefferson: 4.1 Free throw attempts per game
Tayshaun Prince: 2.0 Free throw attempts per game
Puh-lease, even with the down year at generating free throws, Jefferson >> Prince at this particular department. So, I don't believe this bull about Prince doing better with the Spurs than Jefferson.
What I am seeing here is Jefferson fitting in to the 5th option, because George Hill had a usage rate of 19%. This means that Jefferson is doing better than Prince on a better team than Prince in a similar role.
Jefferson had back spasms.. Put up 20 something points a game 2 years ago as a buck on the 10th worse team (which I guess this applys negatively to prince but has no effect on Jefferson if they were on ty teams).. Prince had a bad back all last year.. and the er still put up better numbers. Your points are hollow.
Holly .. 0.6 percent!.. you got me.. this debate is over. You win.
Wow.. Jefferson shot more FTs.. You got me there..
Hey there genious.. You do realize that prince has the same exact number for his OUTSTANDING three point percentage right? Just checking.. (wait for him to come back saying yes but jefferson shot it two more times a game).....
User rating.. Jesus how many websites did you have to look through to find that statistic.. Seriously here I thought you had the porn window up on your explorer and that's why it was taking you so long.
Jefferson has a 0.6 higher userrating and as you can see this is why he is better.. and we want fts.. yes.. Why.. because that is the only damn stat that I can find that Jefferson had higher than prince on..
Get out of here.
Keep crying. You haven't offered a single statistical explanation on why Prince will fit in better than Jefferson. I have said it is a lateral swap and it is pointless doing it. Jefferson will be on the Spurs for a 2nd season, 1 more than Prince if he joins, so Jefferson will know the system better than Prince. You are just being a crybaby now. 0.6% is still a difference.
Fixed. Ya, because I can't be reading the PMs I received for a Spurstalk game we are going to be having. And "butthurt" is a very good way to describe you right now, since you can't figure out the meaning of the words "lateral swap".
God that is so ing childish... lol
Yea I've just gone over and over again saying for you to look at something other than HIS USER RATING.. what ever the that is.. look at real stats you know.. I even gave you the sites. Again.. Please tell me what stats.. Other than FT.. Jefferson was so much better at.. What we are comparing here is two people in like positions within their team.. And oddly with likeable injuries.. although I'd beg to say tays was worth.. but I'll be nice and say they were even.
Now.. take into account that this is what tay has done all his career in the role he has had all his career.
Now.. I even told you to tell me what each players stats were from Feb to the end of the year.. beings you retorted me when I said that prince turned it on at the end of the year by saying so did Jefferson.
Don't give me some ty ass stat that you had to google search for.
I don't give a about their user rating.. and no one here does.
I swear this is the stupidest ing debate.. I serious can not believe I'm having it.. from someone that wouldn't trade jefferson and the 20th pick for Prince.. ok.... Cause.. I don't know.. You have a s chance of getting a role player with that pick and Jefferson is going to land you a Gasol trade in your head.
Fixed.
I am looking at more detailed and advanced stats here. I am guessing you can't comprehend the fact that Jefferson and Prince had similar roles at SA and Detroit respectively and that their production is similar makes it a lateral swap and that RJ's strengths are the ones we need in SA, not Prince's ball handling skills because of our superior guards.
What are real stats? Raw box scores? You know nothing.
jesus.. fine now tell me how they are even..
Ah.. so you are saying you need a better shooter I take it. Pitty Prince isn't better at jefferson than that.
Fixed. You are so dumb. We needed a player who can get to the line and attack the rim. Prince ain't that, as I have reiterated through the amount of free throw attempts.
What you really want.. Is those 2 more made free throws.. It is a pitty that Prince isn't a better shooter... Oh and I do wish it was a corner three that he shoots all the time.. that probably would help you.. But I'm sure that's what Jefferson does.. along with those 2 more FTs.
LOL at yahoo sports being a better site than www.basketball-reference.com
Please just get the out of here.
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