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That is debatble.
That is debatble.
How are new alleles created?
agree ...I prefer magic but I can see arguments being made for:
Kobe
West
Baylor
Kareem
and even Shaq to an extent ...but I sure as would not as good as he was for 5 years i think he and wilt are together a notch below the other 5
Mutation creates new alleles yes we all know that but thats not the only way evolution occurs as you stated....
Shaq was much, much better than Elgin Baylor in every possible way, even if we're talking about strictly from a Laker standpoint..
How is West > Wilt?
Look I am not making an advanced stat argument.
i was speaking about their place or legacy in lakers lore ...
I never saw West, Baylor or Wilt play.
i much like simmons did with his Book on Ball ... am taking the word of longtime Laker fans and relatives of mine that have followed the team before i was born.
Out of the guys i have seen ...
1. Magic
2. Kobe
3. Kareem (i didnt see his prime I started watching in 1980)
4. shaq
I love how non laker fans goona tell us who is greater...this just my opinion obviously ...
But my 5 criteria for judging was:
1. rings
2. Fans that saw all of them play opinions
3. impact
4. stats
5. Overall career AS A LAKER
Well based on your criteria......
Wilt has more rings than west which is your top priority and has better stats, just saying......
how many more rings as a LAKER does Wilt have?
and yes i do consider rings as MOST important ...but gave you all the factors
Dont get me Wrong I am aware and appreciate Wilt's contributions ...
But dont forget West also was the architect of almost all of our les ...Some here have argued that EVEN the last 2 with the Gasol trade ... are owed to jerry west ...LMAO!
I wont go that far but some could argue his contributions in the fron-office even over-shadow his on court which were substantial.
West Magic and kobe IMHO are the only 3 in the discussion of greatest laker ever ..
Mikan, wilt, Shaq Kareem are great ... but a notch below.
I was comparing to the 1980s not 50 years ago. Davis basically said VC did not lift weights. He said that he didn't believe in weight lifting iirc. Davis said it was important to avoid injuries and that VC didn't understand that.
There are undoubtedly a ton of guys who are utilizing every advantage they can to stay in shape and maximize their potential, no doubt.
My brother played in the NFL for a few years. He even started. Plus he played on a 2nd tier Big East football team where several players went pro. Since by all indication you are a stand up guy, I can pm you and you can confirm me and my brother's iden y if you want to. He also did some assistant work at his college for a few years later on. Now keep in mind he said this, not me, but he said that almost every talented guy (ie mostly black) on his college team ate pizza and Burger King every day and sported six packs. Plus he said several of them never ran in the offseason, they did mandatory weight lifting three days a week but that the best players ran the weight room and half of them goofed off most of the time if they wanted to and would only run in practice in the fall. Don't get me wrong several guys worked out hard did everything right, etc. Some of them played B-Ball in the offseason to stay in shape. Like 12 of these guys were drafted according to him. Tbh they did work out hard and smart in prep for the combine for a few months, sported awesome athletic numbers in the tests, and practiced hard. His closest friend, who I met, was a notorious loafer according to my brother, and was drafted based on his athletic ability. They called him a "workout warrior" when he was drafted, lol.
For that reason plus the fact that lardasses like Eddy Curry, Jackie Butler, Jerome James, etc etc are able to stay in the league for years and do pretty much whatever they want training wise, I'll never believe JR Smith lift weights or follows a strict diet every day. Especially since he's been caught drunk street racing several times. I just won't. As for Thomas and Swift both of them failed to bulk up for years even though the book on them (especially Thomas) coming out of college was that they needed to add weight to play power forward. Thomas seems to weigh what he did when he was drafted. My point is there's a lot more loafers who still play than you seem to realize. The idea that almost all of these guys are living Spartan lives and not eating candy and junk food (*cough* Odom *cough*) and training like Olympians is a fairy tale imo. I mean this is a player's league this is tbh.
A ton of them I would guess maybe most, train hard, eat right, and employ advanced training techniques. Tbh my brother talked to several of his friends who also went pro and told me some pretty enlightening stories about them waking up to having to work hard. He also said the NFL is way more serious than college. But they don't have guaranteed contracts. According to his friends though most guys there eat whatever they want as well. Plus they can go home in the offseason and train by themselves if they have enough clout. He also said teams don't hardly lift weights during the season because they say it will wear you out or whatever. So whatever weight lifting advantages you get have to last for four months through the season. The main point I'm making is that according to my brother's experiences pro athletes are way more naturally blessed and in many cases there are more loafers than you're making it seem. Especially in the NBA I would think.
Of course not.
Last edited by Booharv; 06-23-2010 at 01:34 PM.
I made a mistake in that post and just edited it. I meant to say they hardly lift weights during the season.
The NFL is not the NBA. There are plenty of positions on a football team that do not require the absolute best physical condition in terms of having the best diet or being weight room freaks or working on speed. 300 pound guys on either side of the line probably eat whatever the they want and some probably encouraged to do to maintain their bulk. They probably don't worry about their sprint times as much either, at least the middle trench guys like guards and nose tackles. Don't see kickers, punters, and even some quarterbacks being weight room junkies who have to get as strong as possible, at least not a lot of them. I would be willing to bet the vast majority of wide receivers, running backs, defensive backs, and most linebackers are workout warriors who also train on their speed, agility, jumping to maintain the edge they need on the field.
Now that's not to say there aren't slackers in the NBA that get by almost virtually on their talent alone. I'm sure there are. But the examples you use are also ones that prove the point as well. Eddy Curry, Jerome James, Jackie Butler... guys that are extreme underachievers or borderline NBA players at all. They played in the NBA and maintained careers based on their sheer size. Those are the types of guys in the small percentage who because they didn't concern themselves with maintaining their conditioning and maximizing their talent didn't become very good players at all.
I don't really care what your brother says about NFL players. And I'm not questioning whether he actually did play in NFL or whether he knows what he's talking about. Not at all. That's fine. I just think it's less relevant, especially when you're comparing athletes in each sport. The NBA has guys that don't train hard or work hard and don't worry about diet and nutrition. I'm sure there are some, maybe many. I think most players, even the more athletic players in the league, who actually have careers that last past a rookie contract, and especially players that have quality careers as starting caliber or at least rotation players for 8-10 plus years, actually do train hard, work hard to maintain their athleticism and their physical gifts. I think the vast majority do work out and lift weights if not every day at least several times a week. I think there are far fewer Vince Carters in the league than there are guys who work hard to make sure they're still playing in the league. And I think that is one of the reasons why the league as a whole is much more athletic than the 60s, or even the 1980s as you just said was more to your point. You look at the 1980s, the average power forward would be 6'9 and 215 lbs. Today's average NBA power forward is 6'10 and 245 lbs. Some shooting guards today would have been power forwards 20-30 years ago when you look at guys like Joe Johnson or Corey Maggette or Quentin Richardson or Paul Pierce. The league has gotten bigger and stronger. I don't think there's any question about it.
I'm sure there are a good number of players that don't lift weights during the season or limit their weightlifting by a lot. Some players don't like how weightlifting affects their shooting and others might think it's just too tiring with their heavy schedule of games to do it as much as in the off-season.
But, not lifting weights at all, even in the off-season? I don't think many players could stick around in the NBA unless they have that Vince Carter or LeBron James or KG type of talent. And even then, I think Vince Carter is still more of the exception than the rule.
Seems like hardly anyone in the NBA follows a strict exercise or diet lifestyle such as Steve Nash or John Salley. It doesn't seem like until a player gets old or injured that they really change their lifestyles then you have guys like Sheed who just doesn't seem to give a regardless. On the flipside, Shaq lost weight while sitting on the sidelines with his thumb injury.
Offseason is mainly about balancing rest and staying in shape unless you have huge weaknesses to address; with an emphasis on rest unless you hardly played during the season. Even then you have to balance it with rest since over-exerting yourself in the summer can cause problems in the marathon of the sport that is the NBA.
Since the guys I was talking about had six packs they weren't O-Linemen. They were wide receivers, defensive backs, linebackers, running backs, etc. Many of them were as or more athletic than NBA players. Tbh in many ways the NFL is more athletic than the NBA. I would guess the 60 starting cornerbacks would probably be more athletic than the NBA starting point guards overall since mediocre athletes like Fisher, Andre Miller, Luke Ridnour, Steve Nash, have been recent starters and they would be covering Randy Moss, Chad Johnson, etc. in the NFL. Mostly they didn't exactly kill themselves in the offseason and waited until camp started to get in great shape. And they ate badly.
The league has definitely gotten bigger and stronger, I'm not arguing that. Teams didn't used to lift weights at all. Now they have trainers and million dollar facilities. I've never been talking about strength. What I'm saying is the changes in top tier athleticism, quickness, and leaping ability have more to do with more people playing basketball than advanced training methods.
There have to be a ton of slackers like those fat guys I mentioned but ones that don't overeat. Ones that have the same dedication to laziness but do just enough to get by. Tbh a lot of the high school players before the one and done rule were already athletic enough (not in a strength sense but a quickness, leaping ability, speed sense) to play in the NBA and they had been training at some random bum high school five months earlier. There were straight from high school players competing in the dunk contests every year. The fact that you hear that a bunch of players came back from Team USA had learned an entirely new level of work ethic just by watching Kobe means guys made it onto the US Olympic team while not even working that hard. It wasn't even like they learned new fancy advanced techniques from Kobe either, they just learned Kobe was seriously outworking them by a large margin.
prime Findawg > Kobe, tbh.
I agree, I just thought it was foolish that he thought evolution was mainly caused by mutations and radiation
is there a reason you didn't change it to 2 years time?4peat baby!
You're aware of the "mutation-driven evolution" school. Since the molecular revolution in the 1960’s and 1970’s, evidence clearly states that evolution depends on mutation in a way that was not envisioned in the Modern Synthesis.
lol science class
Yes Im aware but thats not what Im arguing, you said that evolution is driven only by mutation which is wrong....
lol several thousand word argument from two guys guessing how hard NBA players work out.
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