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  1. #101
    Banned
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    Yes Im aware but thats not what Im arguing, you said that evolution is driven only by mutation which is wrong....
    He is correct. Mutations are the driving force behind evolution.

    lol creationism.

  2. #102
    Veteran cobbler's Avatar
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    Baylor was a spectacular player.... Many of his accomplishments have been forgotten as there was not a lot of film from that era and the Celts took the limelight. A 25 point turnaround over 8 games and he's the toast of Lakerdom. He was the first real high flyer.

    read this:


    Full Name: Elgin Gay Baylor
    Born: 12/16/34 in Washington, D.C.
    High School: Phelps Vocational, then Spingarn (both Washington)
    College: College of Idaho, then Seattle
    Drafted by: Minneapolis Lakers, 1958
    Height: 6-5
    Weight: 225 lbs.
    Honors: Elected to Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame (1977); All-NBA First Team (1959, '60, '61, '62, '63, '64, '65, '67, '68, '69); Rookie of the Year (1959); 11-time NBA All-Star; All-Star co-MVP (1959)
    Complete Bio | Summary

    Had Elgin Baylor been born 25 years later, his acrobatic moves would have been captured on video, his name emblazoned on sneakers, and his face plastered on cereal boxes. But he played before the days of widespread television exposure, so among the only records of his prowess that remain are the words of those who saw one of the greatest ever to play.

    An offensive force, Baylor averaged 27.4 points per game in his 14-year career.

    "He was one of the most spectacular shooters the game has ever known," Baylor's longtime teammate Jerry West told HOOP magazine in 1992. "I hear people talking about forwards today and I haven't seen many that can compare with him."

    Bill Sharman played against Baylor and coached him in his final years with the Lakers. "I say without reservation that Elgin Baylor is the greatest cornerman who ever played pro basketball," he told the Los Angeles Times at Baylor's retirement in 1971.

    Tommy Hawkins, Baylor's teammate for six seasons and opponent for four (and later a basketball broadcaster) declared to the San Francisco Examiner that "pound for pound, no one was ever as great as Elgin Baylor."

    Strong and graceful at 6-5 and 225 pounds, Baylor averaged 27.4 points and 13.5 rebounds during his 14-year career with the Minneapolis and Los Angeles Lakers. In 134 playoff games, he averaged 27.0 points and 12.9 rebounds.

    From 1960-61 through 1962-63 he averaged 34.8, 38.3, and 34.0 points, respectively. He led the Lakers to the NBA Finals eight times, was a 10-time All-NBA First Team selection, and played in 11 NBA All-Star Games.

    At one time Baylor owned records for most points in a game, in a playoff game, and in one half of a playoff game. In 1962-63, he became the first NBA player to finish in the top five in four different statistical categories -- scoring, rebounding, assists, and free-throw percentage.

    Because his career paralleled the succession of juggernaut Boston Celtics teams in the 1950s and 1960s, Baylor never played on a club that won an NBA Championship. His best years as a scorer coincided with Wilt Chamberlain's peak years, and Baylor never captured a scoring le.

    Moreover, while he was one of the first flashy performers in basketball, many of his best acrobatic plays were never captured on film. Many observers mention his moves in the same breath with those of Connie Hawkins, Julius Erving and Michael Jordan. Baylor played the game with midair body control, employing his ability to change the position of the ball and the direction of his move while floating toward the basket.

    "Elgin certainly didn't jump as high as Michael Jordan," Tommy Hawkins told the San Francisco Examiner. "But he had the greatest variety of shots of anyone. He would take it in and hang and shoot from all these angles. Put spin on the ball. Elgin had incredible strength. He could post up Bill Russell. He could pass like Magic [Johnson] and dribble with the best guards in the league."

    Elgin Baylor was born in 1934 in Washington, D.C., and was named for his father's favorite watch. A high school sports star, he didn't perform well academically and even dropped out for a while to work in a furniture store and to play basketball in the local recreational leagues.

    An inadequate scholastic record kept him out of college until a friend arranged a scholarship at the College of Idaho, where he was expected to play basketball and football. After one season, the school dismissed the head basketball coach and restricted the scholarships. Seattle car dealer Ralph Monroe interested Baylor in Seattle University, and Baylor sat out a year to play for an amateur team while establishing eligibility at Seattle.

    Baylor played for Seattle University in 1956-57 and 1957-58, taking the Chieftains to the 1958 NCAA Championship Game, where they lost to the Kentucky Wildcats. In his three collegiate seasons, one at Idaho and two at Seattle, Baylor averaged 31.3 points. The Minneapolis Lakers used the No. 1 overall pick in the 1958 NBA Draft to select Baylor after his junior year, then convinced him to pass up his final college season and join the pro ranks.

    The Lakers, several years removed from the glory days of George Mikan, were in trouble on the court and at the gate. The year prior to Baylor's arrival the Lakers finished 19-53 with a team that was slow, bulky and aging. Baylor, whom the Lakers signed to play for $20,000 per year (a huge amount of money at the time), was the franchise's last shot at survival.

    "If he had turned me down then, I would have been out of business," Minneapolis Lakers owner Bob Short told the Los Angeles Times in 1971. "The club would have gone bankrupt." Baylor was seen as the kind of player who could save a franchise. He was and he did.

    As a rookie in 1958-59 Baylor was sensational. He finished fourth in the league in scoring (24.9 ppg), third in rebounding (15.0 rpg), and eighth in assists (4.1 apg). He registered 55 points in a single game, at the time the third-highest mark in league history behind Joe Fulks's 63 and Mikan's 61.

    The Lakers finished second in the Western Division at 33-39, 14 victories better than the previous season. They surprised everyone by making it to the NBA Finals after playoff victories over the Detroit Pistons and the defending NBA-champion St. Louis Hawks. However, Boston's young dynasty swept the Lakers in four games.

    That same season, Baylor appeared in the NBA All-Star Game and shared the game's Most Valuable Player honors with the Hawks' Bob Pet . At season's end, he was an easy choice for the NBA Rookie of the Year Award.

    In 1959-60 Baylor's scoring and rebounding improved. He averaged 29.6 points, good for third place in the league, and 16.4 rebounds, which ranked him fourth. The Lakers finished the regular season at 25-50 but still made the playoffs as the third-place finisher in the four-team Western Division. They upset the Pistons in the division semifinals, then lost to the Hawks in a seven-game division finals. Baylor averaged 33.4 points during the postseason.

    Then came the move west. Following teams in other professional sports that moved to the Pacific rim, the Lakers opened up NBA basketball to the other half of the country when they shifted to Los Angeles for the 1960-61 season. Baylor was essential to the club's early success with West Coast fans. He averaged 34.8 points in that first California season, second in the league behind Wilt Chamberlain's 38.4. On November 15, 1960, Baylor scored 71 points against the Knicks in New York, setting a new record for the most points scored in a single contest. He also snared 25 rebounds that night.


    "He was one of the most spectacular shooters the game has ever known. I hear people talking about forwards today and I haven't seen many that can compare with him."

    -- Former teammate and NBA Legend Jerry West



    "Elgin did nothing unusual in that game," former Knicks player Johnny Green told Hoop magazine. "It was just a typical Baylor performance. He just came down the floor, his teammates would clear out an area, and he'd shoot -- a jump shot or a driving layup, followed up by a rebound if he missed. Each particular shot had nothing amazing about it. It was just that Elgin was such an amazing player."

    The Lakers lost to St. Louis in seven games in the Western Division Finals that season, dropping Game 6 in overtime, 114-113, and Game 7, 105-103.

    In 1961-62, Baylor hit his stride along with hotshot second-year guard Jerry West. Unfortunately, Baylor was playing at a time when eligible males were required to perform military service, and his season was curtailed. He spent half of the year stationed at Fort Lewis, Washington, playing only when he could obtain a weekend pass. He appeared in 48 games that season.

    Still, with Baylor (38.3 ppg) and West (30.8 ppg) combining for almost 70 points per game, the Lakers won the Western Division by 11 games and advanced to the NBA Finals. In what would become a familiar matchup, the Lakers played the Celtics for the championship -- and lost. Boston won Game 7 in overtime, 110-107, to claim a fourth consecutive le. Baylor was phenomenal in the playoffs. He scored 61 points in Game 5 of the le series, setting a single-game playoff record that would stand for 24 years until Jordan with the Chicago Bulls scored 63 against the Celtics in a first-round contest in 1986.

    In 1962-63, Baylor was no longer spending half his time marching with a rifle and he improved his overall game. He finished second in the league in scoring (34.0 ppg), fifth in rebounding (14.3 rpg), third in free-throw percentage (.837) and sixth in assists (4.8 apg). The first player to finish in the NBA's top five in four major categories, Baylor helped the Lakers win the Western Division that year, but they fell to the Celtics again in the NBA Finals.

    Knee troubles began plaguing Baylor during the 1963-64 season, and many said he was never quite the same player afterward. Although he would never again average more than 30 points after 1962-63, he had five more All-Star seasons ahead and was a major scoring force for six of the next seven years, averaging at least 24 points in every season except 1965-66, when his output fell to 16.6 points per contest.

    The Lakers remained a winning team throughout those years, although they were constantly overshadowed by the Celtics, who won 11 championships in 13 seasons from 1956-57 through 1968-69.

    After a disappointing 1963-64 campaign, the Lakers won the Western Division and made it back to the NBA Finals the following season. Baylor averaged 27.1 points during the regular season, second on the team to West's 31.0, and made his seventh consecutive appearance on the All-NBA First Team. True to form, the Lakers lost to the Celtics in the Finals, four games to one.

    In 1965-66 Baylor's knee problems limited him to 65 games and a 16.6 scoring average. But West (31.3 ppg), Rudy LaRusso (15.4), and Walt Hazzard (13.7) picked up the slack as the Lakers won the Western Division and advanced to the NBA Finals for the third time in four seasons. Once again they ran into the Celtics who were poised for a rout after taking a 3-1series lead. In Game 5, Baylor ripped the net for 41 points and led the Lakers to a 121-117 win in Boston. After taking Game 6, the Lakers ran out of steam as the Celtics escaped with a 95-93 Game 7 win and another le.

    The 1966-67 Lakers finished in third place in the Western Division and lost in the playoffs to the San Francisco Warriors and Rick Barry, who led the league with 35.6 points per game. Baylor ranked fourth with a 26.6 scoring average and returned to both the All-Star Game and the All-NBA First Team after a one-year absence.

    With Baylor, West, Gail Goodrich and Archie Clark, the Lakers finished second in the Western Division in 1967-68, then blitzed through the playoffs all the way to the NBA Finals. However, Los Angeles lost to Boston in six games. Baylor came as close as he ever would to a scoring le that season, averaging 26.0 points, second to Dave Bing's 27.1.

    The 1968-69 season, Baylor's last full campaign, brought another seven-game Lakers-Celtics Finals, but still no le for Los Angeles. The Lakers had picked up Wilt Chamberlain during the offseason, who with Baylor and West -- all future Hall of Famers -- scored more than 20 points per game. Baylor averaged 24.8 points, helping Los Angeles to a 55-27 record and the Western Division le. The Lakers actually held a three-games-to-two lead in the Finals before the Celtics pulled out Games 6 and 7, clinching the series with a 108-106 victory in Los Angeles.

    The next season, the Lakers finished second in the Western Division, then advanced to the 1970 NBA Finals against New York. The Knicks featured a lineup of Willis Reed, Walt Frazier, Barnett, Dave DeBusschere and Bill Bradley. The Lakers countered with Baylor, Wilt Chamberlain, Jerry West, Happy Hairston, and Mel Counts.

    Games 3 and 4 went into overtime, and then a hobbling Reed, who had missed Game 6 with a leg injury, emerged dramatically from the locker room just prior to Game 7, inspiring the Knicks to a lopsided win. During the regular season Baylor's knee problems had limited him to 54 games, although he made his 11th All-Star appearance and contributed 24.0 points per game.

    Two games into the 1970-71 season Baylor went down with a knee injury that all but ended his career. He missed the rest of the campaign and then returned for only nine games in 1971-72 before retiring at age 37. Ironically, later that season the Lakers won their first championship since moving to Los Angeles. Baylor had ended an illustrious 14-year career without a championship ring.

    Shortly after his playing career came to a close, Baylor tried his hand at coaching. He was hired by the expansion New Orleans Jazz as an assistant coach for the team's inaugural 1974-75 season. He served two full years in that capacity before replacing Butch van Breda Kolff as head coach early in the 1976-77 campaign. Baylor guided the young Jazz for the rest of that season and for the next two seasons, compiling an 86-135 record. His teams failed to reach the playoffs and finished no better than fifth in the Central Division. Baylor stepped down after the 1978-79 season.

    During his coaching stint with the Jazz, Baylor was elected to the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame. In 1980 he was named to the NBA 35th Anniversary All-Time Team, and in 1996, he was named to the NBA 50th Anniversary All-Time Team.

    In April 1986, the Los Angeles Clippers hired Baylor to serve as the team's vice president of basketball operations, a position he continues to hold. After a disastrous 12-70 season in 1986-87, Baylor slowly molded his squad into a playoff contender. Los Angeles improved slightly in each of the next five seasons, peaking at 45-37 in 1991-92 and earning a playoff berth for the first time since the franchise was known as the Buffalo Braves in 1975-76. The Clippers reached the postseason again in 1993 but have continued to experience down years with hopes of greater expectations.


    Career Statistics

    G FG% 3PFG% FT% Rebs RPG Asts APG Pts PPG
    846 .431 .330 .780 11,463 13.5 3,650 4.3 23,149 27.4


    http://www.nba.com/history/players/baylor_bio.html

  3. #103
    ......................... mystargtr34's Avatar
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    Based on statistics, Wilt Chamberlain destroys both Kobe and Jordan.
    Actually if you adjust for pace (per 100 possessions) overall Jordan was equally as statistically dominant as Wilt.

    During Wilt's peak years, he put up a PER of just under 32 in three consecutive seasons, almost identical to Jordan's peak run. Outside of that though, Jordan probably had the slightly better numbers.

    You have to remember back in the Wilt-Russell era both teams regularly put up 150-160 points in a game, meaning there were far more possessions, thus more chances for points, rebounds, assists etc.

    Statistics in those days were incredibly inflated.

  4. #104
    Show me proof.
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    Actually if you adjust for pace (per 100 possessions) overall Jordan was equally as statistically dominant as Wilt.

    During Wilt's peak years, he put up a PER of just under 32 in three consecutive seasons, almost identical to Jordan's peak run. Outside of that though, Jordan probably had the slightly better numbers.

    You have to remember back in the Wilt-Russell era both teams regularly put up 150-160 points in a game, meaning there were far more possessions, thus more chances for points, rebounds, assists etc.

    Statistics in those days were incredibly inflated.
    also, the average nba FG% was much much much lower than today

  5. #105
    Kidd-Gilchrist Damn Chieflion's Avatar
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    Actually if you adjust for pace (per 100 possessions) overall Jordan was equally as statistically dominant as Wilt.

    During Wilt's peak years, he put up a PER of just under 32 in three consecutive seasons, almost identical to Jordan's peak run. Outside of that though, Jordan probably had the slightly better numbers.

    You have to remember back in the Wilt-Russell era both teams regularly put up 150-160 points in a game, meaning there were far more possessions, thus more chances for points, rebounds, assists etc.

    Statistics in those days were incredibly inflated.
    PER favors players playing at a lower pace. Plus, blocks were not recorded in Wilt's time. Wonder what his PER would have been.

  6. #106
    Dragon style JamStone's Avatar
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    Actually if you adjust for pace (per 100 possessions) overall Jordan was equally as statistically dominant as Wilt.

    During Wilt's peak years, he put up a PER of just under 32 in three consecutive seasons, almost identical to Jordan's peak run. Outside of that though, Jordan probably had the slightly better numbers.

    You have to remember back in the Wilt-Russell era both teams regularly put up 150-160 points in a game, meaning there were far more possessions, thus more chances for points, rebounds, assists etc.

    Statistics in those days were incredibly inflated.

    I don't really know how they calculate PER but don't you think Wilt's PER stats would be greater if it actually accounted for blocks and steals? Those stats were not do ented during his career.

    Also, slightly exaggerated on the 150-160 points a game comment. I'm sure there were games that were scored that high from time to time, maybe even more than once in a while, but in Wilt's 14 year career, the teams he played for combined averaged 117.1 PPG. Still a much greater pace, but you really went uber-hyperbole with that comment.

  7. #107
    TheDrewShow is salty lefty's Avatar
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    Another Kobe MJ thread?


    Seriously close that



    We all know Jordan s on Kobe and stuff

  8. #108
    Spur-taaaa TDMVPDPOY's Avatar
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    picking draft busts

  9. #109
    Veteran Veterinarian's Avatar
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    I don't really know how they calculate PER but don't you think Wilt's PER stats would be greater if it actually accounted for blocks and steals? Those stats were not do ented during his career.

    Also, slightly exaggerated on the 150-160 points a game comment. I'm sure there were games that were scored that high from time to time, maybe even more than once in a while, but in Wilt's 14 year career, the teams he played for combined averaged 117.1 PPG. Still a much greater pace, but you really went uber-hyperbole with that comment.
    Don't quote me but I think they found some way to account for the fact that steals and blocks weren't counted then.

  10. #110
    Believe. Nahtanoj's Avatar
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    Actually if you adjust for pace (per 100 possessions) overall Jordan was equally as statistically dominant as Wilt.

    During Wilt's peak years, he put up a PER of just under 32 in three consecutive seasons, almost identical to Jordan's peak run. Outside of that though, Jordan probably had the slightly better numbers.

    You have to remember back in the Wilt-Russell era both teams regularly put up 150-160 points in a game, meaning there were far more possessions, thus more chances for points, rebounds, assists etc.

    Statistics in those days were incredibly inflated.

    Dawg, thanks for helping me out. Thread over.

  11. #111
    Veteran Veterinarian's Avatar
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    Jordan beats Wilt in PER and win shares per 48. He beats him in career TS%. And his best seasons of win shares per 48 beat Wilts best seasons (Wilt has the top season Jordan has the next four best).

    Here's how they calculate those stats differently for pre blocks/steals guys:

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ws.html

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/per.html

    Wilt has the top 3 seasons of TS% and Jordan has like the next nine best and therefore 9 of the top 12 plus a significantly higher career TS% despite the fact that his last two years his TS% totally sucked and dragged down his average. Jordan is not even helped that much by three point percentage since his career percentage is 32.7%, which means those shots came out to less than 50 TS% I think and presumably if there was no 3-point line he would never have taken so many of those long shots. So Jordan appears to be the more efficient scorer (mainly because of Wilt's Shaq like ft shooting).

  12. #112
    ......................... mystargtr34's Avatar
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    I don't really know how they calculate PER but don't you think Wilt's PER stats would be greater if it actually accounted for blocks and steals? Those stats were not do ented during his career.

    Also, slightly exaggerated on the 150-160 points a game comment. I'm sure there were games that were scored that high from time to time, maybe even more than once in a while, but in Wilt's 14 year career, the teams he played for combined averaged 117.1 PPG. Still a much greater pace, but you really went uber-hyperbole with that comment.
    Ill just look at the years he had a +30 PER. I think the year he put up 50 a game, his team averaged 125 PPG, so i guess 150-160 a game wouldnt be all that 'regular', i actually didnt check the exact stats so it wasnt a deliberate exaggeration - i just thought the teams scored more than 125 a game. Either way, i think i made my point.

    And yea, i thought there was some adjustment made for blocks and steals for when they werent recorded, like the previous poster mentioned (not sure exactly what). Still, that adjustment still probably shortchanges Wilt, c onsidering people say he averaged double digit blocks in a season on a regular basis, you would think the PER would increase by about 2 or 3 points.

    I just find it funny when people that have been around the game for so long, such as experts and coaches etc marvel so much at the numbers guys like Russell and Wilt put up like they were far more dominant than players today based on pure numbers. They were great players, its just not that hard to see why they put up the numbers the did.

  13. #113
    Veteran Veterinarian's Avatar
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    Statistically Jordan was a way better scorer than Wilt. His TS% (which is simply points per fg attempt and a pretty inarguable stat) is way higher than Wilt's even if you count all the three pointers he took as two pointers. He made 581 three pointers so subtract 581 points and do the math, his career YS% is still significantly higher than Wilt's even though his last two years suck donkey and Wilt's last two were awesome (career highs) because he was playing the Kendrick Perkins catch and dunk role in LAL's offense.
    Last edited by Veterinarian; 06-24-2010 at 07:05 AM.

  14. #114
    . Booharv's Avatar
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    Bump, since people are getting re ed around here again with the Jordan and Kobe comparisons.

  15. #115
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    is there any thread that doesn't compare stats between Kobe and Jordan? nope.

  16. #116
    Dr. Nasty
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    6 rings to 5 is pretty close.
    Horry > MJ > Kobe

  17. #117
    http://tiny.cc/53atm =gay atxbuttknocker's Avatar
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    is there any thread that doesn't compare stats between Kobe and Jordan? nope.
    I know a couple. Don't forget your troll password!!

    http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42817

    http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102923


  18. #118
    SeaGOAT midnightpulp's Avatar
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    Of course. We let you girls do it when calling Duncan the greatest power forward of all time. Yet everyone knows Karl Malone's numbers smashes Duncan's.
    No they don't. Quit looking at PPG.

    Besides, Duncan's playoff stats obliterate Malone's.

  19. #119
    The Show Must Go On TE's Avatar
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    You put Malone on those Duncan's teams and they go back to back. And this is no knock on Duncan, he's just not a beast.



    wow Luva, the stink of your body has probably ed up your basketball logic.


    1999-2004... Those years belonged to the best, skilled, most fundamentally sound player bigman of all time. Tim ing Duncan.


    Malone couldn't win when he had the chance, but I do agree that he was a beast, just not in a prime Duncan's league.



    honestly, you are losing it dude.

  20. #120
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    He's just trolling now, but LOL @ the stink of your body ..

  21. #121
    Dr. Nasty
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    Kinda like how Kobe was afraid to play for the Hornets

  22. #122
    I believe in yesterday Zelophehad's Avatar
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    Wow, I would have thought Kobe would have led the league in at least one of those metrics besides jacking up shots.

    Even excluding that. Some of those stats aren't even debatable as to their value. Turnover ratio is just the percentage of your possessions that you use which end in turnovers, rebound ratio is the percentage of rebounds you grab while you are on the floor, steal and block ratio same deal.

  23. #123
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    Kobe's advanced stats don't really measure up to most, if not all of the top players..

    His legacy is about his longevity, les and aesthetics, TBH..

  24. #124
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    I'm not a Russell hater, but if he had 6 rings or so, he wouldn't be anywhere near the discussion IMO..11 rings is an extreme amount, not comparable to Kobe's 5..

  25. #125
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    Not really, TBH, I don't hate on success..congratulations on your les Luv, you worked hard for them, my man..

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