We Need RMJ Back

[chazley]

No, the best we can do is to let that choker walk and find a guy that doesn't choke, nor complains about playing time or demands to be traded...

March of 09, if you made a list of the most clutch players currently in the NBA, as a Spurs fan, would RMJ not have been top 10 AT LEAST? That was only 15 months ago, and now he's the biggest choker on the planet. I'm not saying I think he's clutch;He needs to prove it during playoff time. However, we know he has it in him.

[Obstructed_View]

You said he's not getting the MLE so you can't make that point.

I didn't make the point, you did. And I'm asking you the following: If you believe that Mason's going to be offered five million dollars a year, do you actually think he'd give 1/3 of it back as a hometown discount?

3.5/4 mil, I'm assuming, is what you'd think he would get from another team. I think the Spurs can afford that and should look into the possibility of giving him a short term contract for those terms.

That's not what you said. You said he'd get as much as five million from other teams. I've already told you that 3.5 million a year is LESS money than he made last season, which means that teams with money to throw around aren't really banking on his becoming the shooter that he was briefly as a Spur.

[chazley]

Anderson, Gee, Ginobili, Hairston, Hill and Temple are all going to be in the mix on that. The only thing Mason might have a prayer of doing is inspiring Pop to start him because he's a veteran and bring Ginobili off the bench while stunting the growth of the young guards on the roster yet another year, or costing one or more of them a spot.

And how effective was the three guard lineup with Mason on the floor at any point during his time with the team? I'd wager that it wasn't, particularly if he's going to cost more than he did the last two years.

I don't have any stats on the 3-guard lineup, but I know that when I saw it, it seemed to be highly effective for us. As a guard who can spot up for 3 and also come off screens, Mason naturally would thrive in those types of lineups.

Also, only threat to take minutes on your list at the backup SG position is Anderson. Gee (longshot), Ginobili (starter, can and will play some PG), Hairston (SF), Hill (very versatile, backup SG is on a long list of positions he will play this year) and Temple (3rd PG). Historically, how does Pop treat rookies who don't play good defense? The outlook on Anderson getting consistent minutes before the All-star break is bleak.

[Obstructed_View]

Well I'm tired of getting my ass handed to me by chazley the troll, so I'll bow out as gracefully as possible and let this thread die a much-deserved and long overdue death.

[chazley]

I didn't make the point, you did. And I'm asking you the following: If you believe that Mason's going to be offered five million dollars a year, do you actually think he'd give 1/3 of it back as a hometown discount?



That's not what you said. You said he'd get as much as five million from other teams. I've already told you that 3.5 million a year is LESS money than he made last season, which means that teams with money to throw around aren't really banking on his becoming the shooter that he was briefly as a Spur.

You can't tell me he's not getting the MLE then use the MLE as a base salary of what he's getting compared to the Spurs. Unless you want to say it's possible he might get it.

Plus, yes, I think if the Spurs offered him 3.5/4mil a year to stay he would take it. That is my own opinion.

[chazley]

Well I'm tired of getting my ass handed to me by chazley the troll, so I'll bow out as gracefully as possible and let this thread die a much-deserved and long overdue death.

Another one bites the dust.

[chazley]

Again, keep in mind I want Mason back in a complimentary, non-starter roll where he can just come in and hit shots, and not play any PG. People I think are going overboard on the roll they think I want him to play on this team.

[ElNono]

March of 09, if you made a list of the most clutch players currently in the NBA, as a Spurs fan, would RMJ not have been top 10 AT LEAST? That was only 15 months ago, and now he's the biggest choker on the planet. I'm not saying I think he's clutch;He needs to prove it during playoff time. However, we know he has it in him.

Playoffs start in May... Bonner is clutch in December too... who cares?

And your 40% 3PT and 8-10 a game is the absolute ceiling for this guy without contemplating the fact that his defense is probably giving most if not all back.
Not to mention that in the playoffs he's a 25% 3PT and 4 ppg guy.

He's entirely one-dimensional, can't create his own shot, can't dribble worth , his passing is monumentally bad, unathletic, leaks like a sieve on defense, demands playing time he didn't earn, demands to be traded.

We can do *a lot* better than that.

[ElNono]

Hill is the backup SG... if there's anything we need is an actual solid backup PG in case Temple doesn't show much improvement...

[chazley]

Playoffs start in May... Bonner is clutch in December too... who cares?

And your 40% 3PT and 8-10 a game is the absolute ceiling for this guy without contemplating the fact that his defense is probably giving most if not all back.
Not to mention that in the playoffs he's a 25% 3PT and 4 ppg guy.

He's entirely one-dimensional, can't create his own shot, can't dribble worth , his passing is monumentally bad, unathletic, leaks like a sieve on offense, demands playing time he didn't earn, demands to be traded.

We can do *a lot* better than that.

First off, we cannot do better than Mason for the veteran minimum.

Like I said, I cannot make excuses for Mason's playoff resume. It is bad. However, he has shown potential in the regular season that he has clutch ability.

Also, what are you expecting from an 8th-9th man on a team? Of course he's not some dynamic scorer with great athletic ability or passing ability. He does one thing REALLY well, and that is shoot threes. If Mason is playing PG or dribbling, then of course it's a bad thing. Name a championship team in the past 20 years that had a 8-9th man who could do all the things Mason could not, plus all the things he does well. On defense, his lateral quickness is not ideal but he's not Adam Morrison-atrocious on defense.

[chazley]

Also, I'm saying he should play a Brent Barry role on a championship team. I would say his defense was on par with Mason's.

Also, about the whole asking for a trade... his agent inquired about it, it wasn't a huge deal. He never 'demanded' anything.

[ElNono]

First off, we cannot do better than Mason for the veteran minimum.

Replace 25% 3PT and 4ppg? Sure we can. Show me how we can't, backup what you just said.

Like I said, I cannot make excuses for Mason's playoff resume. It is bad. However, he has shown potential in the regular season that he has clutch ability.

No LOB are handed for the regular season championships. He also has shown ample examples how he can't guard anybody, and have the ability to complain about things he hasn't earned on the court.

Also, what are you expecting from an 8th-9th man on a team? Of course he's not some dynamic scorer with great athletic ability or passing ability. He does one thing REALLY well, and that is shoot threes. If Mason is playing PG or dribbling, then of course it's a bad thing. Name a championship team in the past 20 years that had a 8-9th man who could do all the things Mason could not. On defense, his lateral quickness is not ideal but he's not Adam Morrison-atrocious on defense.

For a guy that was ing about playing time and to be traded if he didn't get his feet on the floor, what makes you think Mason is peachy taking on a 8th-9th man role AT ALL?

This is the complete disconnect from reality you have. Mason not only wants to get paid, he wants to see the floor, when his play hasn't earned that time. We're better served by rolling the dice with somebody else. Whoever that is.

[ElNono]

Also, I'm saying he should play a Brent Barry role on a championship team. I would say his defense was on par with Mason's.

Also, about the whole asking for a trade... his agent inquired about it, it wasn't a huge deal. He never 'demanded' anything.

Brent Barry was a WAY superior shooter than RMJ ever was in the playoffs. Brent Barry also was not the '8th-9th' guy off the bench...

[BadOne]

First off, we cannot do better than Mason for the veteran minimum.

Like I said, I cannot make excuses for Mason's playoff resume. It is bad. However, he has shown potential in the regular season that he has clutch ability.

Also, what are you expecting from an 8th-9th man on a team? Of course he's not some dynamic scorer with great athletic ability or passing ability. He does one thing REALLY well, and that is shoot threes. If Mason is playing PG or dribbling, then of course it's a bad thing. Name a championship team in the past 20 years that had a 8-9th man who could do all the things Mason could not, plus all the things he does well. On defense, his lateral quickness is not ideal but he's not Adam Morrison-atrocious on defense.

I think what ElNono is trying to explain though is that his "potential" isn't worth the investment at this point in his career. If Mason was 22 or younger, then it would make sense, however he's turning 30 this September. For a guy his age, he's way too damn raw and one dimensional. He can't dribble, can't pass, can't create his own shot, can't defend and more importantly, can't take playoff pressure. If you can find a player who possesses 2 out of these virtues as a player, then I agree that we can in fact do much better than RMJ for the veteran minimum. Its a trip this thread has dragged on for this long. Mason's injury is an excuse used for the later portion of this season, however that was not the case against Dallas in the 08-09 playoffs, nor was it in the early part of this season.

[ElNono]

Also, about the whole asking for a trade... his agent inquired about it, it wasn't a huge deal. He never 'demanded' anything.

He communicated through his agent that he wanted more playing time, or if that was not possible to get traded to a team that would give him more playing time. Wether you think that's a big deal or not is irrelevant really. What's a fact is that he was thinking more about himself and his possible future contract than the team going into the upcoming playoffs. And his request was completely unsubstantiated by his play.

[chazley]

You just sound bitter that he asked for a trade, I get that. However, I care about production on the court.

If we combine his two seasons on the Spurs, his averages would be:

9 pts, 38% from 3, 25 MPG.

To expect that exact production from him in maybe less minutes is not a huge stretch like you make it seem. And no one we sign for the veteran minimum will give that to us.

Mason was upset because he literally wasn't seeing the floor at all during stretches of last season. He simply asked his agent to ask the Spurs to see if there was a situation out there would he could get some PT. Nothing was 'demanded'. He still came back and played.

[chazley]

I think what ElNono is trying to explain though is that his "potential" isn't worth the investment at this point in his career. If Mason was 22 or younger, then it would make sense, however he's turning 30 this September. For a guy his age, he's way too damn raw and one dimensional. He can't dribble, can't pass, can't create his own shot, can't defend and more importantly, can't take playoff pressure. If you can find a player who possesses 2 out of these virtues as a player, then I agree that we can in fact do much better than RMJ for the veteran minimum. Its a trip this thread has dragged on for this long. Mason's injury is an excuse used for the later portion of this season, however that was not the case against Dallas in the 08-09 playoffs, nor was it in the early part of this season.

See post #119.

[chazley]

Brent Barry was a WAY superior shooter than RMJ ever was in the playoffs. Brent Barry also was not the '8th-9th' guy off the bench...

Yea, Brent Barry was even more important to the Spurs le teams than RMJ ever will be. Which further proves my point.

[chazley]

Also, Mason shot a combined 84% from the FT line during his Spurs career. That would rate him very highly among all Spurs players (#2 or 3 I believe off the top of my head). That is very important to one of the worst FT teams in the league.

[ElNono]

You just sound bitter that he asked for a trade, I get that. However, I care about production on the court.

I'm not bitter at all. I couldn't care less about ex-Spur Roger Mason JR.
It simply shows his lack of commitment to the team concept that's served us well over the years, period.

If we combine his two seasons on the Spurs, his averages would be:

9 pts, 38% from 3, 25 MPG.

Regular season numbers mean crap. What are his averages for the playoffs?
What are his defensive numbers in that period, regular season or playoffs?

We all can cherry pick to try to make a point.

To expect that exact production from him in maybe less minutes is not a huge stretch like you make it seem. And no one we sign for the veteran minimum will give that to us.

Maybe not in the regular season. But you don't win any ships in the regular season either. Let's look at playoff numbers...

Mason was upset because he literally wasn't seeing the floor at all during stretches of last season. He simply asked his agent to ask the Spurs to see if there was a situation out there would he could get some PT. Nothing was 'demanded'. He still came back and played.

He didn't earn the time on the floor either. He wasn't injured all season and he did get floor time early in the season. His defense was terrible, his shot MIA, and thus he lost his minutes to a better player in Hill. Sucks for him, but he had his chances and he blew it. It makes zero sense for the Spurs to reinvest on a proven choker who cannot play a lick of defense, and simply fills no need for the team.

[ElNono]

Yea, Brent Barry was even more important to the Spurs le teams than RMJ ever will be. Which further proves my point.

You haven't made a point yet. Brent Barry >>>>>>> RMJ. RMJ simply cannot possibly play Brent Barry's role, because he's not even close to the shooter that Barry was in the playoffs.

This is akin to saying we need Bonner back to play Horry's role. There's no such thing. Horry was a superior shooter, defender, and had 20x the basketball IQ that Bonner has. There's simply no comparison.

[ElNono]

Also, Mason shot a combined 84% from the FT line during his Spurs career. That would rate him very highly among all Spurs players (#2 or 3 I believe off the top of my head). That is very important to one of the worst FT teams in the league.

76% FT shooter in the playoffs. Our current SGs:

Hill is a 84% FT shooter in the playoffs
Manu is a 82% FT shooter in the playoffs

Neeeext...

[chazley]

I'm not bitter at all. I couldn't care less about ex-Spur Roger Mason JR.
It simply shows his lack of commitment to the team concept that's served us well over the years, period.

Regular season numbers mean crap. What are his averages for the playoffs?
What are his defensive numbers in that period, regular season or playoffs?

We all can cherry pick to try to make a point.

Maybe not in the regular season. But you don't win any ships in the regular season either. Let's look at playoff numbers...

He didn't earn the time on the floor either. He wasn't injured all season and he did get floor time early in the season. His defense was terrible, his shot MIA, and thus he lost his minutes to a better player in Hill. Sucks for him, but he had his chances and he blew it. It makes zero sense for the Spurs to reinvest on a proven choker who cannot play a lick of defense, and simply fills no need for the team.

RMJ's defensive numbers will obviously be worse than normal. Our whole team wasn't nearly the defensive juggernaut it used to be. Like I said, I want him to be a poor man's Brent Barry, who also couldn't play a lick of defense, but the team defense was phenomenal during his time here and that covered him. This Spurs team is no longer a defensive juggernaut.

I told you, I cannot defend his playoff numbers. However, he will be a 8-9th man, and he has shown the ability to be clutch in the regular season. I have no doubt he could help us win a playoff game or two with his shooting, which for a potential 9th man would be huge.

At the end of the day, RMJ is 30 and this year was the last year he has the potential to get a big contract. To ask his agent to explore if he could get minutes on another team, while it might be somewhat selfish, would be necessary for a role player like himself to set himself up financially for the rest of his life. In no way can I blame him, especially when he earned relatively little before he joined the Spurs.

[chazley]

You haven't made a point yet. Brent Barry >>>>>>> RMJ. RMJ simply cannot possibly play Brent Barry's role, because he's not even close to the shooter that Barry was in the playoffs.

This is akin to saying we need Bonner back to play Horry's role. There's no such thing. Horry was a superior shooter, defender, and had 20x the basketball IQ that Bonner has. There's simply no comparison.

No, Bonner to Horry comparison is nowhere close to RMJ/Barry comparison. You can't make up a comparison between two completely different players to disprove my comparison between two other different players. Also, Bonner is a much better shooter than Horry, just not as clutch. That's another subject though.

I will say you are bringing up some valid points though and I respect your opinion.

[benefactor]

lol...so now he goes from playing the Brent Barry role to being a poor man's Brent Barry.