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David put the Spurs on the map. The Spurs were nothing until he came along. After David, the Spurs had an iden y and were actually a very good basketball team.
Tim took them over the top.
Why the need to compare? They are both great spurs.
David put the Spurs on the map. The Spurs were nothing until he came along. After David, the Spurs had an iden y and were actually a very good basketball team.
Tim took them over the top.
It's subjective, there's no denying it. But when you think about what the term 'Spur' has come to represent, that was all made possible by David Robinson -- them becoming a first-class organization, personifying character, class and a commitment to their community, that's all been cultivated because of David Robinson.
With no David Robinson this team's elsewhere and the franchise never becomes what it's known for now in any other city -- it took Dave calling out McCombs for inadequate travel, facilities, among other things, to get them where they were. It took Dave tearing up a contract guaranteeing he'd be paid as the best or top-3 in the league (can't remember the exact terms at the moment), it took a whole lot of things that had nothing to do with on-court play that one can never truly understand or appreciate.
Tim's a great guy, the greatest player the team's ever employed and I don't personally like, love or root for him any less than Dave. But objectively, there's really no comparison to what Tim and Dave have done for the team off the court and in the community, just like there's no comparison to what they've been able to do on the court.
It's honestly not a hard decision for me to say Tim's the all-time greatest Spurs player and Dave is the all-time greatest 'Spur'.
But again, it's subjective.
If it wasn't made possible by Robinson, then it would have been by Duncan. Spurs fans make Robinson sound like Jackie Robinson (speaking of whom, is he better than Willie Mays because of what he did? I think a more proper distinction for Robinson may be most important Spur ever; but best, he isn't).
With no Tim Duncan, this team is elsewhere as well. How quickly that's been forgotten. Duncan also took less than he could have when he signed his last extension. Why is Robinson a god for doing these things, but with Duncan it rarely even get's mentioned?
Youre way wrong with that TD 21...the Spurs were revived by David. The team would be in another city if not for him, the same cant be said for Duncan. The Spurs had climbed back during the 90's, so much so that they had to build an Alamodome to fit more people and tear down the hemisphere arena. Duncan is a great player, but Robinson is the face of the franchise.
I'm still thinking about that....we went from a team looking to relocate to a team needing to build a stadium to fit more people...all within 4 years and all because of one player. David Robinson.
It's often been said that if Duncan didn't re-sign in '00, that the Spurs wouldn't be in San Antonio today.
Who said that? Not true at all. The Spurs had become entrenched with a solid base and foundation at that point. Much like the Spurs wont move once Duncan retires. David built the base. Duncan started the frame. The rest will be the filling.
In all honesty, you seem to be doing with Tim what you accused some of the other people in the thread to be doing with Dave.
I don't have the time or all the facts in front of me to lay out just how ridiculous a contribution Dave's made to the franchise, and I honestly don't think it would change your opinion if I did. That's fine. As a matter of fact, it's more than fine and I have no problem with you or anyone else feeling that way -- I suspect age plays a role in this as well, seeing as we all have certain views based upon where we were in our own development when witnessing a particular player's greatness.
But Dave is and was basically the Michael Jordan of sports community leaders, philanthropists or however you want to phrase it. It's not a slight to say that Tim doesn't surpass Dave in that realm, just as it's not a slight to say Dave doesn't surpass Tim as a player in the actual basketball realm. It's really not.
It's just easy for me to differentiate between the two when you say all-time greatest player and all-time greatest Spur. Just my view.
If you don't think it would have happened, fine, but it's been said many times.
How? Because I'm saying a player that's more than widely regarded as better than another player is better than that player? That's being sentimental, nostalgic and speaking off my emotions? You act like I said Duncan was better than Jordan.
You're right, it wouldn't change my opinion. Duncan has done a lot as in his own right and was the better player and to me, that exceeds Robinson coming first, doing more community work, etc. If Duncan had, say, had a similar type career to what O'Neal had with the Lakers and left, I'd be saying hands down Robinson is the better Spur. Age does play a role, but I can assure you it doesn't with me in this case. Besides, you don't even know how old I am.
I agree, that's not a slight to Duncan and I never said he surpassed or even approached Robinson in this realm, but he isn't chopped liver in this regard either and that's how people are portraying this.
You don't think most important isn't a more proper distinction than best?
Last edited by TD 21; 07-17-2010 at 08:55 PM.
TD 21- I dont mean to call you out but you cant say its been said many times and not prove it. What? Some hack like Stephen A Smith said it? Some of your friends? Who? It is well known that the Spurs were gone if not for Robinson. But Duncan? Nope. I dont buy it.
Prove it? What do you expect me to do, find old articles from nearly and in some cases, a full decade ago? Remember and quote word for word what I was hearing at the time? It's been a decade. I'm just telling you I remember hearing it at the time, I don't care whether you believe me or not or believe it to be true.
I've heard the case made.
1. No Duncan, no '99 le.
2. No '99 le, voters don't approve the arena bill.
3. No new arena, Spurs become a target for cities like St Louis and OKC that have NBA-level arenas ready to move in to.
Not nearly as much of certainty as losing the team if Robinson never came to San Antonio, but the Spurs would have been vulnerable to relocation without the new arena.
TD 21- then dont say things that you cant back up. Very simple. You have been an adament supporter of Duncan over Robinson in this debate and thats cool. But dont pull things out that you cant back up just to make your argument seem better. The Spurs were going nowhere whether Duncan re-signed or not. Why? Because our fanbase was at a fanatical high after winning its 1st le, the city was growing and in prosperity and we have a plethera of venues to draw from and a "suburb" in Austin that was gonna draw major flow to the Spurs. Why do you think they were looking at building the new Spurs arena closer to I-35 and 410 than down on colusium rd? Spurs wrent going anywhere if Duncan left. David had solidified us by then.
He was making the point of Duncan re-uping after we had already won a le and at the point youre talking about was because we didnt want to spend money on another arena when we had an already perfect Alamodome that we bought that was gonna be unused. It had nothing to do with the Spurs leaving. they werent going to.
Best Spur Ever = D Rob
Best Spur Ever = Timmy D
Back up? Mel_13 has heard the case made and I'm sure others have too. I'm surprised you haven't. I'm not saying it 100% would have happened, but the notion was out there.
I'm not so much an adamant (by the way, for future reference, it's don't, fan base, plethora and weren't)supporter of Duncan over Robinson so much as I'm thinking about this logically. You know, as in one guy is a consensus top ten player all-time while the other is a consensus fringe top twenty player all-time.
You're en led to your opinion obviously, I just think it's more appropriate to, if you want to anoint or bestow a le upon Robinson, call him the most important Spur ever, as opposed to best. I really don't see the argument for calling him best, but if you're steadfast in that belief, that's fine. It doesn't affect me.
Robinson is the best Spur. If you want to call it Most Important...so be it. What's the difference? Tomato...tomata. Did my thread say best Spurs player? Or Best Spur?
So you created a thread, asked for people's opinion's, then told them what to think? Good job.
I knew you had an agenda all along. Only a biased Robinson fan would even start this thread.
And, no, best and most important aren't one in the same. Like my Jackie Robinson example. He's more important than Willie Mays because of what he did, but was he better than him? Of course not.
Jaren Jackson's clutch shooting streak to shut down the LA Forum says " o"....
Mario Elie's dagger and Sean Elliott's MDM say " o" as well...
for proper comparison...
Dennis Rodman's 0 for 5 from beyond the 3 pt arc in the '95 series against Houston say "WTF?"
People talk about DRob's stats. But the fact is: Tim Duncan has better playoff stats.
No, we obviously agree about the two of them on the court but you've been arguing that Tim's somehow getting slighted for his off-court work when he's not considered the all-time greatest 'Spur.' You're posts have just read like a really loyal fan sticking up for his guy.
I'm fully aware it wouldn't. You're just speaking to a different criteria.You're right, it wouldn't change my opinion. Duncan has done a lot as in his own right and was the better player and to me, that exceeds Robinson coming first, doing more community work, etc. If Duncan had, say, had a similar type career to what O'Neal had with the Lakers and left, I'd be saying hands down Robinson is the better Spur.
The OP was:
What you've been arguing is that Tim is the all-time greatest Spur because of his basketball exploits. And I agree if that's the criteria. I'd also tell you that I believe that to be the criteria amongst 99% of teams across the league -- if you were to ask a random NBA fan outside SA who's the all-time greatest Spur, 9 out of 10 would probably say Duncan. But it's different inside the city of San Antonio and their fanbase. The Spurs aren't a bunch of paid athletes there for their entertainment, they're family. They're their pride and joy, heroes and next-door neighbor all rolled into one.
Being a 'Spur' means something to the town and has come to be recognized throughout the NBA, as you hear players and announcers referring to particular people as being a 'Spur' or made of 'Spurs material'. And that was all borne from David Robinson. Had he decided to re-enter the draft and become a Laker instead of join a team thought to be in the middle of nowhere at the bottom of the NBA barrel, we never find out what that is. San Antonio never comes to embrace and define their players by a Robinson standard, instead they're probably just like most every other fan that care only about the result and couldn't care less about the lives their players live or what kind of people they are.
David blazed the trail, created the mold and gave us all something that we'll never really be able to put into words. He was an absolute godsend to San Antonio and whether it's the team still being in San Antonio or the fact that it became the first-class organization it is, that all goes back to Dave.
That was a general comment directed at us all. When people talk about Indiana State and Michigan State in the championship, I know what they're talking about. I've read about it, heard the stories and even seen the game. But I didn't see it when it happened. I'm not quite old enough to know that era, the players and all that goes into that particular time that made it so special for the people that watched them. Not the way I've been able to watch Dave and Tim's career. No matter how much I read, see or hear about that time, it just won't register with me the way it would say a Bill Simmons or anyone else that became Bird or Johnson fan.
So while I acknowledge their greatness and know their greatness, I don't necessarily feel it the way I do with Dave and Tim. I know where they stand and that one if not both of them are greater players in the grand scheme of things than Dave and Tim, but there's no telling me that Bird's above Duncan. You'll hear every argument in the book, every injury, excuse, you name it, I'll come up with it to rationalize why Tim is better. I'm a fan, but I also happen to truly know Tim's greatness as I've experienced it, much the same way with Dave. But I'm also sure there's the Blackjack equivalent out there that feels the same way about Bird that I do about Tim and he'd do the same exact thing in favor of Bird. He lived through it and experienced it. He can tell you all about Bird's back injury and what how hitting his head on the floor affected him the following two weeks and how had it not happened he would've done this or that. It's just the nature of the beast; or fandom.
Timmy's pretty much all someone can ask for from a professional athlete. He's humble, unassuming, unselfish and he represents his team and city with the utmost respect. But while he does charitable things and is a decent human being by all accounts, he chooses to be a basketball player first and foremost -- I love him for it and I'd probably be the same way (with less humility and unselfishness, of course -- I am Omnipotent), but that's where he and Dave differ.I agree, that's not a slight to Duncan and I never said he surpassed or even approached Robinson in this realm, but he isn't chopped liver in this regard either and that's how people are portraying this.
Dave was an advocate, a leader off the court and someone that embraced and didn't mind putting himself out there for a cause or belief. He's always been hands on in the community, willing to attach his name or prestige to a cause or anything he believed in, and he's always had a need for service and spreading his faith. Dave was one of the greatest basketball players to ever live but that's not what he was put here for. Basketball was just something he happened to be great at. He was always a servant or philanthropist first and foremost. He was and is just different, and it took him being that to set the standard.
What I think's most important is to just recognize and be thankful for being graced with greatness. Not taking players like Dave and Tim for granted and not losing sight of the big picture, one that doesn't often see players or men of their caliber come into focus.
I'll end with the way I started.
Spurs' All-Time greatest player, Tim Duncan.
All-Time greatest Spur, David Robinson.
There is a differentiation in my view.
Last edited by Blackjack; 07-18-2010 at 01:13 AM.
Both are All Time Greats, Legendary players in there own rights. We were all blessed to have these two great men wearing the silver and black.
Some of The Admiral's stats in the early to mid 90s are off the charts but stats arent everything. The rings didn't start flowing in until TD took over the league.
I respect the way David stepped aside and let Tim become 'the man' offensively while david concentrated on Defense and along with Tim helped the spurs become one of the scariest defensive teams ever.
Some people say Tim had better teams. Our second championship in 2003 Timmy was a complete monster who destroyed the league. We won the championship with a rookie argentinian, a second year frenchman, and a retiring Admiral
I'd say Tim number 1 spurs player all time
David Robinson closely following at no.2 with the Iceman not far behind.
You can't go wrong with either on or off the court, they're two of my favorite and most respected people ever.
I loved the way David mentored Tim and sacrificed some offense and helped him along to be the greatest power forward we'll ever see. Let's see how Tim mentors Tiago Splitter and see if he does it so "admirably"If all goes well with Tiago lets lock Tim into the number 1 spot without a doubt
Last edited by TR21; 07-18-2010 at 01:43 AM.
Duncan because he got it done.
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