basketball talk - The assist - overblown and overrated?

[Goran Dragic]

Not necessarely true

The Jazz offense was not the same without Stockton
Same thing with Nash in Phoenix

Those are tru impact playmakers

The Suns would have the same amount of championships without Nash as they do with him, same thing with the Jazz.

[Goran Dragic]

You talk about guys like Magic Johnson, he had help like Byron Scott.

And also the best center of all time who was still a great post scorer, and a HoF forward who could finish all of the passes Magic dished him. But yeah, I'm sure Byron Scott is why Magic won

What about Isiah Thomas, he had Joe Dumars in his backcourt. Guess what? These guys won not just one, but multiple times. It is of no coincidence that a great PG paired with good perimeter threats along with passable inside presence will win les.

That Pistons team won because it was one of the best defensive teams of all time, they were by no means a great offensive team. I'll chop my nuts off the day any team with Steve Nash is as good defensively as those Pistons.



The NBA is completely different now than it was in the 80's (largely because of Jordan). The fact Isiah and Magic are the most recent examples of a PG leading their team to a le makes it pretty clear that teams led by PG will flame out in the playoffs in the modern NBA.

[lefty]

That's my point, volume assist PG = ty overrated team. If a team with CP3 was a championship caliber team CP3 wouldn't sniff 10+ assists per game.

The Suns would have the same amount of championships without Nash as they do with him, same thing with the Jazz.

The fact that the statical leaders in assists haven't won a lot of les sunce 1991 has more to do with who they are surrounded with than anything else. Before 1991, Magic played with a great Laker team, and Isiah had plenty of scorers around him.
Stockton had Malone, who has choked in the NBA Finals, Kidd has played on average teams outside of New Jersey, and the Nets were to weak in the paint to stop Shaq, Duncan and Robinson; Nash has been playing on a very poor defensive team



Also, here is my 0.02 on the thread in general




- When talking about Pippen, Jordan, Kobe, it's important to keep in mind that they have played in the triangle offense, a system that allows sharing the ball, involving everyone.
I'm not saying they are not great passers, but heck, even Luc Longley could dish it out in Tex Winter's offense



- " Lastly, are getting tons of assists and being a great passer as intertwined as people think? Is a player who can get assists using his ability to draw defensive attention but can't make a simple entry pass or find teammates iso'ed against a mismatch really a "good" passer? Is someone who isn't good enough to draw defenders away from teammates but can make pinpoint entry passes and set players up for iso's just as good as if not a better passer than volume assist players? "

I believe a great passer is a player who has the ability to make plays, like Magic, Nash, Isiah.

Feared scorers like Jordan, Kobe, Ginobili would be in-between (they would get their assists mainly because of their avility to score and draw attention, but they were/are still terrific passers)

Then you have the overrated great passers, like Shaq; I mean, give me a ing break; Shaq is already a giant to begin with and when he was dominant other coaches would triple team him, all he had to was to raise his arm and pass the ball to an open teammate; " great passrer " my ass

[BUMP]

Bottom line is you need somebody who can put the ball in the basket consistently. When the game is on the line you need a superstar to take over, so yes the assist is overrated.

You could have the flashiest player on the court but if you have ezau and his dead wife as teammates it does you no good

[lefty]

Bottom line is you need somebody who can put the ball in the basket consistently. When the game is on the line you need a superstar to take over, so yes the assist is overrated.

You could have the flashiest player on the court but if you have ezau and his dead wife as teammates it does you no good

yep

[Chieflion]

And also the best center of all time who was still a great post scorer, and a HoF forward who could finish all of the passes Magic dished him. But yeah, I'm sure Byron Scott is why Magic won


That Pistons team won because it was one of the best defensive teams of all time, they were by no means a great offensive team. I'll chop my nuts off the day any team with Steve Nash is as good defensively as those Pistons.



The NBA is completely different now than it was in the 80's (largely because of Jordan). The fact Isiah and Magic are the most recent examples of a PG leading their team to a le makes it pretty clear that teams led by PG will flame out in the playoffs in the modern NBA.

So all you are arguing is that teams need talent to win? That is such an astounding statement. Those guys were great assist men, they won because they had help. Plain and simple. If Chris Paul and Deron Williams had that support, they would win championships too.

Again, the PG's impact was so great in winning during the season, you had to wait until the playoffs to realize that the role players suck and could not elevate the level of their game, much like the usual role players. Reading your previous posts that states that their weaknesses are actually enhanced during the playoffs, obviously has to do with the fact that the players suck, not the PG.

[Goran Dragic]

The fact that the statical leaders in assists haven't won a lot of les sunce 1991 has more to do with who they are surrounded with than anything else. Before 1991, Magic played with a great Laker team, and Isiah had plenty of scorers around him.
Stockton had Malone, who has choked in the NBA Finals, Kidd has played on average teams outside of New Jersey, and the Nets were to weak in the paint to stop Shaq, Duncan and Robinson; Nash has been playing on a very poor defensive team

Having an assist like Stockton who played to rack up assists rather than get wins certainly didn't make things easier for Malone. Watch any film of that Utah team, the stuff Stockton did to get assists was re ed. He would pass up open layups and rifle it out to Hornacek for a 20 footer. I'd agree with the Jason Kidd point but Kidd was too lazy to ever develop an individual offensive game, he was content being a player who could control games without scoring (that's actually something he said). Nash has been on bad defensive teams because Nash sucks at defense, he gets the lionshare of the blame for that one.

- When talking about Pippen, Jordan, Kobe, it's important to keep in mind that they have played in the triangle offense, a system that allows sharing the ball, involving everyone.
I'm not saying they are not great passers, but heck, even Luc Longley could dish it out in Tex Winter's offense

you're right, the triangle offense has had better ball movement than any other offense in recent memory, and oddly enough it's an offense predicated on not having a star PG.

I believe a great passer is a player who has the ability to make plays, like Magic, Nash, Isiah.

Magic and Isiah were able to make plays and get assists without dominating the ball. Nash wasn't good enough to do that, he dominated the ball more than he should have and repeatedly 'd pick and rolls to rack up assists.

[Goran Dragic]

So all you are arguing is that teams need talent to win? That is such an astounding statement. Those guys were great assist men, they won because they had help. Plain and simple. If Chris Paul and Deron Williams had that support, they would win championships too.

Again, the PG's impact was so great in winning during the season, you had to wait until the playoffs to realize that the role players suck and could not elevate the level of their game, much like the usual role players. Reading your previous posts that states that their weaknesses are actually enhanced during the playoffs, obviously has to do with the fact that the players suck, not the PG.

CP3 and Deron Williams will never win a championship as the best player on their team. Write it down, take a picture. It's never going to happen.

[Chieflion]

CP3 and Deron Williams will never win a championship as the best player on their team. Write it down, take a picture. It's never going to happen.

We will see. Right now, they have as much of a chance as anyone else. Obviously, they would need to be surrounded with good enough talent to prove your point, which isn't impossible. It can be done.

[Goran Dragic]

We will see. Right now, they have as much of a chance as anyone else. Obviously, they would need to be surrounded with good enough talent to prove your point, which isn't impossible. It can be done.

Good enough talent would mean they'd have a superior player on their team capable of closing out close playoff games the way neither one of them can. Remember when CP3 had to defer to Jannero ing Pargo in a game 7 (lol deferring to Jannero Pargo) once San Antonio started to shut down his passing lanes? They ain't winning until he has a superior player to defer to in a big playoff game.

[lefty]

Having an assist like Stockton who played to rack up assists rather than get wins certainly didn't make things easier for Malone. Watch any film of that Utah team, the stuff Stockton did to get assists was re ed. He would pass up open layups and rifle it out to Hornacek for a 20 footer. I'd agree with the Jason Kidd point but Kidd was too lazy to ever develop an individual offensive game, he was content being a player who could control games without scoring (that's actually something he said). Nash has been on bad defensive teams because Nash sucks at defense, he gets the lionshare of the blame for that one.

True

But I think Stock was more concerned with winning though; he was a tough compe or

Magic and Isiah were able to make plays and get assists without dominating the ball. Nash wasn't good enough to do that, he dominated the ball more than he should have and repeatedly 'd pick and rolls to rack up assists.

Interesting point; but again, the defenses they faced were not the same; plus, there was no zone D back in the days, which may explain why Nash has to dominate the ball more in order to find an open teammate

But I could b wrong

[Goran Dragic]

I think you're 100% right. Teams are allowed to do things now like run zone D's so one player can't kill them. Back then they weren't able to do that.

[Chieflion]

Good enough talent would mean they'd have a superior player on their team capable of closing out close playoff games the way neither one of them can.

Like I said before, only time will tell. Paul and Williams can also score very well. Your biased views against PGs is unreal though.

[Pelicans78]

you can make a case for any stat being overrated by itself. Scoring, blocks, steals, all can be overrated. There's a difference between overrating assists and overrating PGs who ac ulate assists.

The reasons why guys like Nash, CP3, and D-Will are considered stars is because they can do other things as well.

CP3 easily made his team much better from 2007-2009. He created for everyone and put them in the right position to succeed. That's why the Hornets succeeded. David West became a two-time All-stat with CP3, Tyson Chandler became relevant, and the team won. Unfortunately, the team didn't have enough scorers who could create shots for themselves, and Chandler's injuries really hurt the team overall, especially defensively.

Deron Williams isn't overrated just because his team hasn't won a championship. He needs more help as well. Kobe was a great scorer from 2005-2007, but his teams didn't win because there wasn't enough talent around him.

[Zelophehad]

This thread at times is arguing a couple of different things. Are assists an important stat? Are teams better off with one player averaging 10+ assists? And are point guard driven teams better off moving the ball out of the pg's hands? (lol DoK's hatred of Nash)

I wondered if the best teams were also teams who averaged a lot of assists. I took ten minutes to see what the two Finals teams averaged in respect to the league and each other in assists per game for the last twenty years to see for myself.

1991-Bulls 4th LAL 11th
1992-Bulls 3rd Por. 10th (random fact: Portland led the league in 1991)
1993-Bulls 6th Pho. 10th
1994-Hou 8th NYK 11th
1995-Hou 7th Orl 1st
1996-Bulls 5th Sea 7th
1997-Bulls 2nd Jazz 1st
1998-Bulls 7th Jazz 2nd
1999-SAS 6th NYK 24th
2000-LAL 10th Ind 13th
2001-LAL 9th 76ers 21st
2002-LAL 9th NJN 3rd
2003-SAS 22nd NJN 7th
2004-DET 15th LAL 4th
2005-SAS 14th DET 12th
2006-Mia 17th DALL 29th
2007-SAS 11th CLE 15th
2008-Bos 8th LAL 4th
2009-LAL 2nd ORL 29th
2010-LAL 16th Bos 2nd

Tbh this probably would have been more scientific if I used their stats compared to the league average but that would have been way more work.

A couple of things jump out from this for me. 1) Those Bulls teams were annually high up among the league assist leaders. 2) There were only 5 significantly bottom tier assist teams which made the Finals (teams who were in the 20s in rank for the year). And only one, 2003 SA (22) won a le. 2006 Dallas (29) lost in a tough 6 game series, and 1999 NYK (24), 2001 PHI (21), and 2009 ORL (29) lost in five games. And 3) from 1991 to 1998 no team worse than 11th made the Finals, it's gotten a little more hit or miss in the post-Jordan era.

Let me break it down even further, out of the teams to make the Finals in the past twenty years, 14 out of the 20 Champions were top ten assist teams, five were in the 11-17 range and one was in the 20s and 11 out of the 20 runner ups were top ten assist teams, five were in the 11-15 range, and four were in the 20s.

If the 06 Mavs hadn't the bed with some help from the refs they could have been the worst passing team to ever win a le. ing isolation offense. I hope to God Beaubois is a good enough all around player and passer that we're pick and rolling Roddy and Dirk in the clutch and breaking down the defense the next few years instead of just isolating for jumpers.

[Goran Dragic]

I have a question 78, if CP3 didn't get injured this year, would the Hornets have ever discovered what kind of a scorer Marcus Thorton could be? It's hard for anyone to create their own shot or for any young player to develop an ability to create for himself when the PG has the ball in his hands 95% of the time.

[Pelicans78]

I have a question 78, if CP3 didn't get injured this year, would the Hornets have ever discovered what kind of a scorer Marcus Thorton could be? It's hard for anyone to create their own shot or for any young player to develop an ability to create for himself when the PG has the ball in his hands 95% of the time.

They already did discover his scoring before CP3's injury. Thornton was moved into the starting lineup 3 games before CP3 went down. Plus, after Scott was fired, the offense was changed to allow for more ball movement and spacing instead of relying entirely on the pick n roll. Thornton was a 6th man before the Devin Brown trade and moved into the starting lineup and played 3 games with CP3 before the injury. Thornton was already scoring well before in the starting lineup. The player who got the most benefit from CP3's injury was Collison.

[Pelicans78]

In the 3 games Thornton started with CP3 before the injury, he scored 19, 18, and 20 points. In CP3's first game back from the injury, the team inserted Thornton in the lineup with him and moved Collison to the 6th man rule. Thornton scored 28 pts that game. I think those two will complement each other well.

[Pelicans78]

Good enough talent would mean they'd have a superior player on their team capable of closing out close playoff games the way neither one of them can. Remember when CP3 had to defer to Jannero ing Pargo in a game 7 (lol deferring to Jannero Pargo) once San Antonio started to shut down his passing lanes? They ain't winning until he has a superior player to defer to in a big playoff game.

CP3's jumper wasn't as strong as it is now. The CP3 of now would have taken over that game. He just didn't have enough confidence in his jumpshot back then, especially in that game. He's a different player now. He's become a much better scorer than he was two years ago Plus, he can defer to Thornton if needed who can score instantly. Also, West was playing with an injured back and he wasn't effective that game. San Antonio had no one who could stop him before he hurt his back in game 5.

[Goran Dragic]

lol making excuses for deferring to Jannero Pargo

[Goran Dragic]

In the 3 games Thornton started with CP3 before the injury, he scored 19, 18, and 20 points. In CP3's first game back from the injury, the team inserted Thornton in the lineup with him and moved Collison to the 6th man rule. Thornton scored 28 pts that game. I think those two will complement each other well.

I'm talking about his 1st injury. The first game Thornton scored more than 8 points was the game CP3 got injured. If CP3 played 82 games last year would Thornton have ever been discovered?

[Pelicans78]

lol making excuses for deferring to Jannero Pargo

It's not an excuse. It is what it is. He wasn't a great jumpshooter back then. He was decent, but not nearly as good as he is now. He was a pure PG back then who could score, but not good enough to win that game. It was only his 3rd year in the league and he was what 22 or 23 back then? He's a much better scorer now and continues to get better.

[Goran Dragic]

Even at age 22 a true leader would know he's better off taking the shots than Jannero Pargo.

[Pelicans78]

I'm talking about his 1st injury. The first game Thornton scored more than 8 points was the game CP3 got injured. If CP3 played 82 games last year would Thornton have ever been discovered?

That was Byron Scott's fault mostly. He didn't play Thornton or Collison in the first ten games of the season for whatever reason. He got limited minutes in the first few games before the first injury. That was more of a Byron Scott issue than a CP3 issue. Scott was slowly bringing Thornton and Collison into the rotation, but the team struggled badly in the process relying on bums like Devin Brown, So-Feet, and Bobby Brown. It had nothing to do with CP3 running the offense.

[Pelicans78]

Even at age 22 a true leader would know he's better off taking the shots than Jannero Pargo.

Maybe ur right, but Pargo was the best SG that season which is sad to be honest. He was more of a scorer than CP3 who was still mostly a pure PG who scored mostly on dribble penetration or fast breaks. It was unfortunate that he didn't shoot more, but I guess he wasn't confident enough in his shot at that time. It sucks, but it is what is.