basketball talk - The assist - overblown and overrated?

[Goran Dragic]

Btw I don't fault CP3 for not closing that game out, it's not something Deron Williams or any other PG would be able to do. Just look at how the other team won, when New Orleans made a 4th quarter comeback and cut the lead down, San Antonio closed it out because they had a player Parker could defer to capable of creating for himself and closing the 4th quarter out by getting to the line.

[Pelicans78]

Btw I don't fault CP3 for not closing that game out, it's not something Deron Williams or any other PG would be able to do. Just look at how the other team won, when New Orleans made a 4th quarter comeback and cut the lead down, San Antonio closed it out because they had a player Parker could defer to capable of creating for himself and closing the 4th quarter out by getting to the line.

That game sucked overall. Offensively and defensively. The team played scared but were also limited with a lack of depth and a lack of a wing scorer who could create shots which is why Pargo was that guy in the 4th. The team had to double Duncan because Chandler was limited with his toe injury, West couldn't score that night, and no one else was doing anything until Pargo came in and the overall defense improved. That's why the Posey signing was such a joke because the team needed a wing scorer and instead signed a role player. The bigger joke now is the team has a head coach before actually having an owner or GM.

[Goran Dragic]

At least you guys aren't starting Hedo Turkoglu at power forward.

[ogait]

Lets say Nash plays different than what he has during his time in Phoenix. He never shot under 50 % since he has been traded by Dallas so obviously he´s an amazing shooter.

His assists go down and his individual scoring goes up, will Phoenix perform better? No because his team mates are still Leandro Barbosa, Shawn Marion, Raja Bell, etc.

Now par him with players that can create for themselves like Duncan had Parker and Ginobili, he can still be the most important player on his team and win a championship as a point guard oriented team.

So yes averaging over 10 assist can be overrated but the players who do it aren't imo.

[Pelicans78]

I think a scoring PG could have closed it out. That wasn't a great Spurs team by any means and Manu was limited himself. I think the CP3 of today could have won that game. D-Will too since he's a great scorer. All the Hornets needed was a wing scorer that night and they could have won.

[Pelicans78]

At least you guys aren't starting Hedo Turkoglu at power forward.

Why isn't Frye starting?

[Pelicans78]

I think Goran's point is that a great PG won't have to average 10 assists per game while playing on a championship team. Maybe he's right. Maybe if CP3 or Nash or Williams played on the Lakers, they wouldn't average 10 assists per game.

[Goran Dragic]

Now par him with players that can create for themselves like Duncan had Parker and Ginobili, he can still be the most important player on his team and win a championship as a point guard oriented team.

Replace Parker with Nash, and Duncan is still the best player on his team in 2005 or 2007. It's not particularly close either.

[Veterinarian]

Why isn't Frye starting?

They need him at center so he can defend the rim with his awesome shotblocking.

[Goran Dragic]

Why isn't Frye starting?

Because he's the backup C and they wanna keep the 2nd unit intact from last year.

lol @ the Suns paying the backup C, backup PF and backup SG a combined $16 million for the next 5 years.............they chose that over just giving Amare a 5 year max deal.

[Pelicans78]

Because he's the backup C and they wanna keep the 2nd unit intact from last year.

lol @ the Suns paying the backup C, backup PF and backup SG a combined $16 million for the next 5 years.............they chose that over just giving Amare a 5 year max deal.

So Hedo's really starting at PF?

So who made these signings with Kerr gone? So basically we have this:

C Lopez (who the Hornets would love to have)
PF Hedo
SF Hill
SG Richardson
PG Nash

with Frye, Warrick, Dudley, and Dragic. I don't know its really worse than this:

C Okafor
PF West
SF Peja
SG Thornton
PG CP3

Collison, Posey, Pondexter, Songalia, and Gray. I bet the Suns are still better.

[Goran Dragic]

slightly still better since Gentry is still coach and he'll be able to eek wins outa the team but I really don't care about making the playoffs and losing anymore. Once Amare left it was time to rebuild.

[Pelicans78]

slightly still better since Gentry is still coach and he'll be able to eek wins outa the team but I really don't care about making the playoffs and losing anymore. Once Amare left it was time to rebuild.

Yeah. The problem is Nash. He's still around. What would be the first step? Trade Nash? It's possible. Goran is ready to start.

[ogait]

Replace Parker with Nash, and Duncan is still the best player on his team in 2005 or 2007. It's not particularly close either.

True.

But have Duncan leading a team with the talent Steve Nash had around him those years and he probably can´t get the tle as well.

[Goran Dragic]

They had two routes to take, either resign Amare and make minor tweaks to improve defensively, or decide he's not worth the risk and begin rebuilding by trading Nash/Hill and stockpiling young players/picks. At this point though no one is getting traded, they're locked in with this team for 4-5 years, and by then they'll have taken on some new ty contracts that make it impossible to rebuild.

Steve Kerr gave them light at the end of the tunnel with a team that would have cap flexibility to rebuild while still being good. Sarver reversed all the good Kerr did for the team with the moves he's made this summer putting the Suns back in salary cap .

[Goran Dragic]

True.

But have Duncan leading a team with the talent Steve Nash had around him those years and he probably can´t get the tle as well.

Probably not. I'm not saying the Suns woulda won a championship with a scoring PG instead of Nash, I'm saying that building around a PG doesn't work.

[DaDakota]

Good thread, and it does somewhat prove that a PG that dominates the ball is not as important as a well balanced team that shares that responsibility.

DD

[lefty]

Good thread, and it does somewhat prove that a PG that dominates the ball is not as important as a well balanced team that shares that responsibility.

DD

Exactly

[JamStone]

I think if you put CP3 on the Boston Celtics in 2007-08, they still win the le and he averages around 10 apg. He still plays his game and they win. He wouldn't have been the best player on the team, but he'd be a 10 apg type PG and they win.

[Goran Dragic]

The thing about that is teams are only gonna be so talented. It's not realistic to just add Chris Paul to a team that was already one of the best teams this decade. Anyway Chis Paul's game is dominating the ball, Doc Rivers would get him on a leash real quick if he played anything like the way he did in New Orleans. It's a much slower pace and he'd be playing in a half court motion offense with set plays, I don't think he'd average 10 assists.

[JamStone]

I think you're kidding yourself if you don't think Doc would basically hand the keys to a guy like CP3, an established superstar point guard. Doc would bend over and drop his pants for CP3 and let him play his style. CP3 would be fine getting everyone involved. Even back in 2007-08, Pierce, KG, and Ray Allen all gave up the ball to Rondo. Rondo wasn't the same player he is now, but he handled the ball and for the most part facilitated the offense even back then. You can bet all three of those guys would be more than willing to do the same with CP3. Rondo averaged 10 apg this past season, now that he's come into his own as a player. CP3 was already established in 2007-08. He'd do the same if not more in terms of assists.

I think you're really trying to sell the point that a ball dominating PG can't win championships. Sure that's been the case in this past decade. But I'm not convinced that if a great ball dominating PG were on the right team with the right talent around him, he couldn't put up 10 apg as well.

[Goran Dragic]

CP3's style doesn't win championships.

[Daddy_Of_All_Trolls]

Let's review the basics, of what we already know, to clarify a few points about assists.

Logic says you pass the ball if a teammate has a better chance than you to make a basket. Best example would be where you steal the ball, a teammate runs down court ahead of the pack and you send an outlet pass to him. He gets two points, you get an assist. If you shoot from where you passed the ball, your coach will pull you. If you don't see your open teammate and dribble the ball down court, your coach will pull you.

On a 2 on 1 fastbreak, if you have the ball and you're covered, you pass it. Assist.

Now, take the set offense assist. PG has ball at top of key. C sets a screen. SG runs around screen and gets open. PG passes to SG and he makes an open shot. PG gets the assist but you could argue it belongs to the C, he got the SG open. The SG could ask for an assist as well, he got himself open.

Hockey gives multiple assists, why not the NBA?

SG passes the ball to PF who has posted up. PF makes a few faking moves, dribbles around his guy with a fake or two more, and scores. No assist here. The PF created his shot.

If it hasn't been mentioned, when a playoff series begins with a dominant point guard, the other team studies how that PG gets his assists and adjusts their defense. Passing lanes, rotations, matchups; everything is different than regular season. A team that relies on their PG to get them looks will get frustrated if the passes to them have been thwarted or there is a defender in their face whether they have the ball or not. That could cost them games, and as recent history has shown, it has. Ask Nash, Kidd, Paul, Williams, etc...

[JamStone]

CP3's style doesn't win championships.

I'll compromise. CP3's style would adjust with more talent and with more teammates able to create scoring opportunities. But with more talent, even with an adjusted style, CP3 could average 10 apg and help his team win a championship.

[Brazil]

CP3's style doesn't win championships.

maybe true but TP's style doesn't win championships either, prime duncan does.