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Holy crap.
Who? me?..ya..
What's funny?..
Holy crap.
Tracy McGrady in the 2003 postseason, games one and two, at least, was masterful. He had a couple of minutes there in game 2 where the Pistons stopped them using Prince and that changed the series.
But he had 43 points in game one, a win, and 46 points in a loss in game two. That's the one that sticks out. There are other players, Baron Davis for one and the Hornets were always stealing games from the Pistons. Ricky Davis lit up Carlisle's team to the tune of 42 points with the Cavaliers. Chauncey and Gilbert Arenas used to go up against each other and that was fun. It wasn't dominated by either team, but it was fun to see them play each other. Pierce won two playoff series (2002, 2008)--the cap ends--on the Pistons home floor. That always sticks with me.
They changed in 2005-06. They were a better offensive team, but they were no longer a Championship-type defensive team. It cost them the Championship and they needed Ben Wallace to make a run at another one.
Yeah, he's pretty hated around here. Jefferson and Scalabrine. Billups the only starter left on the floor in 3rd overtime. All that force-feeding Corliss Williamson. The Pistons offense screeching to a halt. I remember that game like it was yesterday.
Last edited by Darrin; 07-31-2010 at 11:46 AM.
Jefferson used to own Tayshaun Prince in head-to-head matchups. In the eleven playoff games against each other:
Jefferson: 16.8 ppg, 6.6 rpg, 2.5 apg, 1.09 spg, and .82 bpg.
Prince: 7.0 ppg, 4.4 rpg, 1.8 apg, .64 spg, and .73 bpg.
Most of that difference is in the seven-game series in 2004.
2004 stats:
Jefferson: 21.0 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 3.3 apg, 1.29 spg, and 1.00 bpg.
Prince: 8.0 ppg, 4.4 rpg, 1.8 apg, .64 spg, and .73 bpg.
Tayshaun had problems with guys as big and athletic as he was if they had strength that suprassed his. Jefferson definitely was athletic and strong. He can't stay infront of him because he causes fouls or simply gets mauled going for the basketball.
It was during the Cavs vs Pistons series in 07 that I realized how soft Prince could be at times. There were so many times in that series, where Lebron would make a strong move to the basket and Prince would literally just run out of the way. Every time Lebron went for a layup/dunk attempt Prince would just move out of the way because he didn't want to get dunked on.
And the other thing I remember is Prince bricking shots left and right in that series. I don't know what % he shot exactly but I'd expect it to be in the 36-39% area. He got steamrolled on defense and then brought nothing on offense. The worse part about all of this is that the Pistons were truly the better balanced and better team. If they had made it to the Finals, they would have been way more of a challenge to the Spurs than the Cavs were imho.
Spurs Pistons would have been an evenly matched finals in 2007. If it was half as good as 2005 it woulda been a great finals, and certainly woulda been better than the abortion that was the 2007 finals.
You soft-balled it. He shot 24%. He made 1 of his first 19 shots (Games one and two). He's was 1-10 in game six, the elmination game. I totally agree. He's the Pistons 3rd or 4th option on offense and he'd be lower if Ben Wallace was better (He was when Antonio McDyess or Chris Webber were the starter). For all his clutch-play, he's been equally as disappointing in certain matchups.
Exactly. This is why I thought that if the Pistons had drafted Carmelo Anthony and moved Prince to the bench (they had him under contract through 2004-05 and still had all the pieces to make the Rasheed trade), they may have run the table for five years. James Posey outplayed him in 2008. He couldn't handle it when he had to go from Piece to Posey. Not to mention, it would've done wonders for the Pistons-Cavaliers rivalry (they met in 2006, 2007, and 2009 postseasons).
He had a breakout performance in 2003, but he averaged 5 points in the Conference Finals. Dumars dismissed it going into the 2003 draft and it cost the Pistons les. The Pistons probably would've made it in 2007 if they still had Ben Wallace. Those two mistakes are unforgiveable in my opinion. He can't be considered a genius (and I've argued the reverse on this board in the past--2006) making these 4 huge mistakes:
1. Not Drafting Carmelo Anthony.
2. Letting Ben Wallace walk over 10 million dollars.
3. Trading Chauncey Billups for Allen Iverson.
4. Signing Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva in 2009 (27-55 in 2009-10 season) at the expense of Wade, Bosh, James, Boozer, or Stoudemire in 2010.
Those are the reasons the Pistons, for all their success, haven't had a dynasty and why we are talking about this era as it is over.
Last edited by Darrin; 07-31-2010 at 05:09 PM.
24%?? Good lord, that's bad. I remember him struggling, but I forgot just how bad it was, since it was quite some time ago. You know, over the years I've expected Prince to one day become an all-star. He has all the tools, but I've started to realize lately that it just might not happen. I'm not saying that he will NEVER be an all-star, but my expectations for him have lowered.
He's a role player and has been since day one. He's a good one, but you cannot rely on him to contribute consistently. If he has a good matchup, he can shine. But you have to expect less of him to see that as an accomplishment. He'd be a Sixth Man of the Year on the right team because he'd always have a great matchup. But he's not a starter and the only reason he was for as long as he was is because the Pistons could get by with his weaknesses.
I remember thinking the same thing about being an All-Star. But the 2003-04 season summed it up. The Pistons saw some defense on him and suddenly the offense came to a stop. If Chauncey and Rip weren't having good games, the Pistons didn't have a chance to win. It wasn't until Rasheed Wallace stepped in and took all the defensive attention away from Tayshaun that he started contributing.
He was billed as the Pistons' next power forward in 2008-09. He did well for about 20 games and suddenly he became injury-prone. He's not an All-Star. If he ever makes it, it will simply be because the Conference is weak, or he's on a good team. We're 8 years into his career now. He's 30-years-old. He's reached his peak. This is as good as it gets and it continues to look worse-and-worse the further we get away from the decision to make him a centerpiece.
You make some really great points. This helps me understand Prince's game and role better. It sounds to me that the Pistons ought to look at getting a high scoring SF, and bring Prince off the bench. He could be a good sixth man like you stated earlier, and he can backup the 3 and 4 spots. Problem is I don't know if he would be happy coming off the bench, and to get a legit SF you would probably need to package Prince in such a deal. But if the Pistons could find a way to improve the 3 spot without giving up Prince or their other main assets, it'd definetely make them better by improving their depth. Prince would be great with the 2nd unit, he'd really give a spark. And there would be less pressure on him as a bench player, which ought to help him.
Yes, HarlemHeat37, LeBron on the Pistons. That's what you want to hear, right?
In theory, that would be ideal. But he has to accept the role and he's making 11 million dollars and is due to be a free agent next summer. They'd have to draft his replacement because the trading block consists of Prince, Hamilton, and Maxiell. The Pistons would be better to jettison him with, like a Rodney Stuckey, for a superstar than waiting to draft someone he will perceive as put him out of a job. The Pistons won't have a lot of money when he comes off the cap, either. So it's best for them to cut ties with him all together. To get more cap room they could trade him for a Vince Carter. That rumor hasn't died, but it makes more sense with Hamilton.
The problem is that they cannot miss with who they bring in and there's not a lot of good guys they could get with that package. I don't see a team that needs to rebuild that could jettison a guy 26-30 years old under a long-term deal. Gilbert Arenas, maybe, but he's injury prone and the Pistons couldn't afford to pay him to sit on the bench. Yao Ming is equally as injured. Al Jefferson was just traded. They could try to get Chris Paul, maybe, but I don't think they'd have much luck. Andre Iguodala might be a good option. Chris Kaman--that's been rumored for years. Zach Randolph if Memphis doesn't do anything this season. This will probably, if Dumars doesn't sit it out like he has every other chance in the last three years, be revisited at the trading deadline, 2011.
They may just let him walk and cement the disappointment that he never turned into the Pistons' first-option on offense, and then let Hamilton expire 2 years after that to give them the free-agent crop of 2014 (who knows who's there?) after 3 more lottery picks to their current crop of (a re-signed in 2011) Stuckey, Jerebko (re-signed in 2011), Daye (re-signed in 2014), Monroe (re-signed in 2015), Gordon (due to come off in 2014), and Villanueva (due to come off in 2014). That could get them back off the ground. But that waiting is tedious and because he traded Billups and signed the extension of Hamilton and signed Gordon and Villanueva, that should, and probably will, get Dumars fired.
Last edited by Darrin; 07-31-2010 at 11:18 PM.
The Pistons don't have many options when it comes to trades. No one really does these days, except for the really elite teams. In this league, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. I look at the Pistons as close to being good but there's a chance they could become bottom dwellers. Dumars has already commited some unforgivable mistakes like you've stated earlier, he cannot afford to mess up again. He has to find ways to improve the team soon, the league is getting more and more compe ive. If he doesn't bring a significant upgrade to the team, the team may slip even further. And if they do, he'll probably get fired.
He has to figure out what he will do with the vets on the team- Gordon, Villanueva, Prince, Hamilton, Maxiell. You guys do have a very nice set of youngsters though. Daye, Summers, Jerebko, Monroe, and Rodney Stuckey. Hopefully the young guys work hard and improve. And Dumars will have to make moves to free up some cap space for 2012. It's crucial though that even if things get rough next season, everyone must keep playing hard and stay positive. They must stay resilient. Once FA's see signs of a team on the rise, they will want to play for them and contribute. If you can get a few good FA's and the young guys improve as well, you'll be on your way to becoming a good team. It may be a while before you return to the glory days, but first things first.
Interesting I always thought Prince was a great defender on those Pistons team.
From what I know, he's a good defender based on matchups. You could put Prince on Allen Iverson, and Prince would do well in guarding him. But against the bigger SF's like Pierce/Lebron/Jefferson, they were able to use their size and strength against him.
Oh btw, Lebron looks like a kid in your sig. How old was he then?
It was when Lebron was still in highschool this pic was taken after a game in 2003
the 2004 pistons are one of the best defensive teams I have ever seen.
He was early on, 2003-04 to 2004-05. He played smart and played hard. He pretty much always struggled against strong and athletic small forwards who would attack the rim and go into his body, as has already been mentioned with the likes of Richard Jefferson. But he would maximize the use of his length and angles to offset his weaknesses a lot. Richard Jefferson back then was relentless in attacking Prince so even if Prince did well a few plays, it wouldn't stop Jefferson from attacking. Why Prince was so effective against guys like T-Mac and Kobe was at some point those guys would just start settling for jumpers.
But something also changed with Prince after 2005. Perhaps it was the iness of Rasheed and Chauncey that gave Tayshaun some unwarranted sense of false bravado. Perhaps getting all NBA defensive second team honors. I'm not sure, but sometime around the 2005-06 season and/or afterwards, Tayshaun started believing he was an offensive star as well who was capable of being a 20 point scorer on a different team. He get fragile, mentally. He lived off of that 2004 Reggie block and gradually became a lesser defender. Year after year, season after season, he got worse. More than anything, I think it was a mental issue. Losing Ben Wallace after 2006 was probably a big part of it. After that, more and more players started attacking Prince regularly and relentlessly. Found out his length was minimized when you attacked his body. After a while, Tayshaun just started getting out of the way hoping doing something like "pulling the chair" routine would confuse guys attacking the rim. Instead, you would see Tayshaun on more posters than the Twilight cast. It's sad. He thought he was a better player than he was. He's not. He's a good complementary player when he's the fourth option or worse on a team. He's a solid defender if he has an elite big man playing behind him and he's actually playing hard.
At this point, he'd be an ok bench player on a good team.
HarlemHeat won that medal thanks to the respect he earned from his fellow spurstalkers because of his unbiased and smart baskteball takes, tbh.
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