Which superstar led team is the worst team in the last 10 years?

[21_Blessings]

Fair to say to a point. Lamar Odom did miss 18 games and Kobe missed 16 games that season. When either or both were not playing, the Lakers that season were 9-23. Caron Butler was steady, but it was evident that that particular Lakers team was pretty bad beyond Kobe, Odom, and Caron. To not have Odom and Kobe for that many games really hurt them. Quality depth was a major issue for that team.

They might have still missed the playoffs but they wouldn't have been nearly as bad had they had Kobe and Odom not miss so many games.

This is all obvious a person shouldn't even have to type out. Shows how clueless Harlem really is.

Not to mention the Lakers were flirting with the 8 seed before Rudy T quit. They then blew up his system immediately; Frank Hamblen as head coach makes Mike Brown look like Chuck Daly.

[HarlemHeat37]

This is all obvious a person shouldn't even have to type out. Shows how clueless Harlem really is.

I did mention injuries in my post, actually..BLESSINGS!!!..



The Clippers finished ahead of the Lakers with Maggette(their leading scorer) missing 16 games, and Kaman(their starting C) missing 20 games..

The Wolves finished ahead and had Sam Cassell(2nd option) and their starting C miss 20+ games each..

The Grizzlies had Gasol, their best player, miss 20+ games too..

Either way, the Lakers were like 10 games back of the 8th seed by the end of it IIRC, the injuries aren't nearly enough to negate that..sorry Bless..thank Gasol that the Lakers aren't going through that anymore..

[namlook]

Kobe not making the playoffs in 2005 was pretty bad..

Coaching and injuries were a big factor. They were 24-19 with Rudy T. They were 10-29 with the assistant coach Hamblen after Rudy T left with Kobe and Odom missing a chunk of time and being limited with injuries in the second half of the season. Before Rudy left and the injuries hit they were on pace to make the playoffs.

[Dunc n Dave]

As soft as Gasol is, yes, he WAS the leader of those Memphis teams that got swept in the 1st round 3 years in a row.

Unless you'd like to argue that Mike Miller, Bonzi Wells, James Posey, or Jayson "White Chocolate" Williams were the leaders? Cuz those were the guys he was runnin with...

[21_Blessings]

Yes Pau Gasol lead that deep, talented, veteran team to zero playoff wins. A true leader of men.

[Red Hawk #21]

Pau shouldn't be in this discussion. He was nowhere near a superstar at that time.

[JEREBKO POWER]

If you count Bosh as a superstar, then I'd say the Raptors. Only 2 playoff appearances while he was there, both first round exits. Also, only 1 winning record...47-35.

[JamStone]

I did mention injuries in my post, actually..BLESSINGS!!!..



The Clippers finished ahead of the Lakers with Maggette(their leading scorer) missing 16 games, and Kaman(their starting C) missing 20 games..

The Wolves finished ahead and had Sam Cassell(2nd option) and their starting C miss 20+ games each..

The Grizzlies had Gasol, their best player, miss 20+ games too..

Either way, the Lakers were like 10 games back of the 8th seed by the end of it IIRC, the injuries aren't nearly enough to negate that..sorry Bless..thank Gasol that the Lakers aren't going through that anymore..

Which speaks on the depth of those teams beyond those players.

The 2004-05 LA Clippers went 11-9 without Chris Kaman, 10-6 without Corey Maggette. Both Brand and Bobby Simmons had great years to help cover for those losses. After Caron Butler, that Lakers squad had guys like Luke Walton, Brian Cook, and Chris Mihm trying to make up for the losses of Kobe and Odom.

That 2004-05 Minnesota team went 12-11 without Sam Cassell. They went 16-9 when either Ervin Johnson or Michael Olowokandi didn't start. And that was with guys like Mark Madsen and Jon Thomas starting at center. Again, they had players to help cover for Cassell's loss.

And not sure why you point to the Clippers or Timberwolves from that season. Both of those teams missed the playoffs as well.

As for the 2004-05 Memphis Grizzlies, they went 17-9 without Pau Gasol. Heck, they were 28-28 with Pau. Not exactly damning evidence to prove what you were trying to prove. Thank Gasol they don't have that guy who made a team winning at a .654 clip a .500 team?

In fact, it shows exactly what I was suggesting at the depth of that 2004-05 LA Lakers and how poor it was beyond Kobe, Odom, and Caron. To lose either Kobe or Odom or both for over 30 games that season spelled clear doom for that team. Rudy leaving midseason made things worse. Yes, that Lakers team was one of the worse teams of the past decade that had a superstar player on the team. It's because the supporting cast was really, really bad.

[HarlemHeat37]

Which speaks on the depth of those teams beyond those players.

The 2004-05 LA Clippers went 11-9 without Chris Kaman, 10-6 without Corey Maggette. Both Brand and Bobby Simmons had great years to help cover for those losses. After Caron Butler, that Lakers squad had guys like Luke Walton, Brian Cook, and Chris Mihm trying to make up for the losses of Kobe and Odom.

That 2004-05 Minnesota team went 12-11 without Sam Cassell. They went 16-9 when either Ervin Johnson or Michael Olowokandi didn't start. And that was with guys like Mark Madsen and Jon Thomas starting at center. Again, they had players to help cover for Cassell's loss.

And not sure why you point to the Clippers or Timberwolves from that season. Both of those teams missed the playoffs as well.

As for the 2004-05 Memphis Grizzlies, they went 17-9 without Pau Gasol. Heck, they were 28-28 with Pau. Not exactly damning evidence to prove what you were trying to prove. Thank Gasol they don't have that guy who made a team winning at a .654 clip a .500 team?

In fact, it shows exactly what I was suggesting at the depth of that 2004-05 LA Lakers and how poor it was beyond Kobe, Odom, and Caron. To lose either Kobe or Odom or both for over 30 games that season spelled clear doom for that team. Rudy leaving midseason made things worse. Yes, that Lakers team was one of the worse teams of the past decade that had a superstar player on the team. It's because the supporting cast was really, really bad.

I wasn't arguing your point about depth, nor was I arguing about the quality of the Lakers' supporting cast past Kobe/Odom/Butler..

I brought up the injuries to show that the other teams involved in the playoff race all had major injuries as well, so while the Lakers injuries played a big part, it wasn't a big enough difference to make up 11 games in the GB column..

Kobe had a sub-par year where he shot 43% from the field and 33% from 3s, while averaging 4+ turnovers per game..he struggled with the different responsibilities he was given that he didn't have in Phil Jackson's system..

The part about Pau is irrelevant, he was still their best player at the time, which is all I said..

[JamStone]

The problem with your examples was that each of the three teams that you used as examples had winning records with the players who got injured were out. Every single one of the injured players. That goes to the depth issue. The Lakers were 9-23 without Kobe, Odom, or both. 28% winning percentage. Versus better than 50% for your examples.

So yes, the major injuries was a big enough difference.

The other problem was that that two of your examples were teams that also missed the playoffs. Had their major injuries actually affected their winning, they'd have been similarly affected. But those teams won when their injured players went down.

The part about Pau is significant. I don't see how you can argue otherwise. If a player goes down and the team wins at a higher rate than with him, then his injury is not as damaging as a player or players going down and then the team losing. That's the point of injuries affecting winning or losing, which is at issue.

Come on, Mr. unbiased and balanced. You're better than that...

[Darrin]

2003-04 Allen Iverson and Glenn Robinson-led Philadelphia 76ers (33-49). Iverson blasted management and the coach over firing Randy Ayers while putting up MVP-like numbers. The Sixers had a 12-game falloff after watching their previous head coach win an NBA le with Detroit. It was the year they got the pick that turned into Andre Iguodala. Kenny Thomas looked like a star (13.6 ppg, 10.1 rpg, 1.5 apg, 1.1 spg) and Eric Snow had his last productive year (10.3 ppg, 6.9 apg, 3.4 rpg, 1.2 spg).

You can pencil in Stephon Marbury for the majority of the rest. He put up Oscar Robertson-like numbers on some historically bad teams in New Jersey, Phoenix, and New York.

Another one: Amar'e Stoudemire-led Phoenix Suns (29-53). He had his first 20-10 season and did it on a horrible Phoenix Suns team. Joe Johnson and Shawn Marion had some great stats, too.

Ray Allen and Rashard Lewis had some bad seasons in Seattle, the worst being the 31-51 Sonics of 2003-04. Bad year for superstar players.

The 2005-06 Orlando Magic with Stevie Franchise, Dwight Howard, Hedo--they won 36 games for the second year in a row.

The 2002-03 (33-49) Toronto Raptors led by Vince Carter were pretty bad.

Michael Redd had a career year (26.7 ppg, .465, .382, .829, 3.7 rpg, 2.3 apg, 1.2 spg) for the 28-54 Milwaukee Bucks in 2006-07.

Just a couple of guys.

[Red Hawk #21]

Not to hijack the thread, but who are some 20/10/50 players? Let me define this, these are the kind of players that will give you 20 points/10 rebounds or 20 points/10 assists but the team at the end of the season will end up with 50 losses.

[Venti Quattro]

zach randolph

[JamStone]

Not to hijack the thread, but who are some 20/10/50 players? Let me define this, these are the kind of players that will give you 20 points/10 rebounds or 20 points/10 assists but the team at the end of the season will end up with 50 losses.

KG and Al Jefferson both did that. Considering both did that with the Timberwolves and under McHale's GM watch, you'd have to put some of that on McHale and the organization. But both KG and Jefferson should take an appropriate amount of criticism for it as well.

[Killakobe81]

The problem with your examples was that each of the three teams that you used as examples had winning records with the players who got injured were out. Every single one of the injured players. That goes to the depth issue. The Lakers were 9-23 without Kobe, Odom, or both. 28% winning percentage. Versus better than 50% for your examples.

So yes, the major injuries was a big enough difference.

The other problem was that that two of your examples were teams that also missed the playoffs. Had their major injuries actually affected their winning, they'd have been similarly affected. But those teams won when their injured players went down.

The part about Pau is significant. I don't see how you can argue otherwise. If a player goes down and the team wins at a higher rate than with him, then his injury is not as damaging as a player or players going down and then the team losing. That's the point of injuries affecting winning or losing, which is at issue.

Come on, Mr. unbiased and balanced. You're better than that...

Jamstone trying to bring logic and impartiality ...to an NBA forum debate you KNOW better than THAT!!! LOL

Great points ... +1

[TheMACHINE]

Lebron's team in 2007 was terrible. Despite all the hate, he did an amazing job that year.

The starters against the Spurs in the final

Daniel Gibson
Sasha Pavlovic
Lebron James
Drew Gooden
Big-Z

Chucky Atkins
Kobe Bryant
Caron Butler
Lamar Odom
Chris Mihm

[TheMACHINE]

Jamstone trying to bring logic and impartiality ...to an NBA forum debate you KNOW better than THAT!!! LOL

Great points ... +1

the logic probably worked this time since harlemho is nowhere to be found in here.

[Dunc n Dave]

Chucky Atkins
Kobe Bryant
Caron Butler
Lamar Odom
Chris Mihm

Atkins > Gibson
Bryant = Lebron
Butler > Pavlovic
Odom > Gooden
Mihm < Ilgauskas

Cavs were still worse.
And yes, I said Atkins was better than Gibson. Gibson was a one-trick pony rookie who got hot in the playoffs, but wasn't the same guy in the regular season. All he did was hit open 3's off of Lebron's drives. At least Atkins could shoot, play some D and could run an offense. Both were streaky shooters though.

No denying Butler and Odom were better than Pavlovic and Gooden.

[JamStone]

Atkins > Gibson
Bryant = Lebron
Butler > Pavlovic
Odom > Gooden
Mihm < Ilgauskas

Cavs were still worse.
And yes, I said Atkins was better than Gibson. Gibson was a one-trick pony rookie who got hot in the playoffs, but wasn't the same guy in the regular season. All he did was hit open 3's off of Lebron's drives. At least Atkins could shoot, play some D and could run an offense. Both were streaky shooters though.

No denying Butler and Odom were better than Pavlovic and Gooden.

I do agree that LeBron had a worse supporting cast and took his team further, but you do misrepresent that Cavs team.

That 2006-07 Cavs team's second best player was Larry Hughes and should be the guy you compare to Caron Butler if you match up Kobe against LeBron.

2004-05 Caron Butler: 15.5 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 1.9 apg
2006-07 Larry Hughes: 14.9 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 3.7 apg

Butler was the better player but the difference isn't all that great. Butler didn't become the "star" (and I use that loosely) player he later became until he played for the Wizards. And while Hughes was a disappointment that year especially in the playoffs, he still provided secondary scoring and playmaking.

Also, Drew Gooden that year averaged 11.1 ppg and 8.5 rpg in 28 mpg. His contributions on the court were also pretty close to Odom's when you look at minutes played. Plus, Gooden played 80 games in the regular season to Odom's 64 regular season games. Those missed games narrow the difference between production.

Cavs also had a little more depth overall. Sasha, Donyell Marshall, Varejao, Damon Jones aren't all that great. But compare that to Jumaine Jones, Luke Walton, Brian Cook, and Tierre Brown, and you have to give it to Cleveland.

[lefty]

Lakers without Shaq or Gasol

[Giuseppe]

^tee, hee.

[ElNono]

KG's Timberwolves were pretty bad overall, except that season they had sprewell and cassell.

[Josepatches_]

I do agree that LeBron had a worse supporting cast and took his team further, but you do misrepresent that Cavs team.

That 2006-07 Cavs team's second best player was Larry Hughes and should be the guy you compare to Caron Butler if you match up Kobe against LeBron.

2004-05 Caron Butler: 15.5 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 1.9 apg
2006-07 Larry Hughes: 14.9 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 3.7 apg

You can't use only the numbers to see who player was the best. An average player in a bad team is going to have better numbers.
At least you'd have to put FGA and FG% too.

[JamStone]

Oh Caron was definitely the more efficient offensive player. I acknowledged he was the better player. But the disparity between Caron and Larry Hughes is no where near the disparity between Caron and Sasha Pavlovic. That's what's noteworthy and why I mentioned that including Sasha Pavlovic into the equation when matching up the two teams was not really accurate.

[Dunc n Dave]

Oh Caron was definitely the more efficient offensive player. I acknowledged he was the better player. But the disparity between Caron and Larry Hughes is no where near the disparity between Caron and Sasha Pavlovic. That's what's noteworthy and why I mentioned that including Sasha Pavlovic into the equation when matching up the two teams was not really accurate.

To an extent, you are right. But on the effeciency line, Gooden and Hughes were horrible volume shooters. Caron and Odom were much more effecient offensive players.

I can't remember the last tiem Larry Hughes shoot over 42% from the field for the year... and Gooden has always had a poor FG%, especially for a power forward.