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which game would the Rockets have won that LA didn't win? The only semi-close game was game 2.
Rockets took the Lakeshow to 7 games without Yao. Yeah woulda taken them out.
which game would the Rockets have won that LA didn't win? The only semi-close game was game 2.
Yeah Lakeshow can gloat all they want but without Yao we are a team that doesn't even make the playoffs but still takes you whiny pansies to 7 games.
The Lakers basically went into January regular season mode after Yao went down. They were never in any danger of blowing that series to Houston.
I'll challenge that contention.
Why not? That would actually be an interesting discussion.
I think that would be a pretty good series actually. I wouldn't claim that the Pistons would definitely win, but I think it would be a compe ive series either way. I certainly don't think either team would "dismantle the out of" either team.
Rasheed and Ben contained Duncan in his prime. Duncan still played well but they also forced him into 40% shooting by largely playing him straight up man-to-man with no double teams. I think they'd have similar success with Gasol.
Billups would have still had his way against the Lakers of the past two seasons, especially against Fisher. And the Lakers wouldn't be able to hide Fisher on Rip or Prince. While that Pistons team wasn't an offensive juggernaut by any means, one thing they were very good at was exploiting an offensive mismatch. They were more than willing to ride whoever had the match-up advantage. Put Fisher on Rip or Prince, either would attack Fisher in the post. The best thing the past two championship Lakers teams could have done defensively would be to play Shannon Brown more to defend either Billups or Rip, but then they'd have to live with Shannon's dip decision making on offense.
And, in 2004, Rasheed actually nutted up a couple times and went into the post to attack Medvedenko. While Odom is obviously a much better player than Medvedenko, Odom (or Gasol or Bynum, for that matter) would have his struggles against Rasheed when Rasheed pulled his head out of his ass long enough to get in the low post against any of those guys.
Again, that's not to say the Pistons win the series, but that Pistons team still would be very compe ive matched up against either the 2009 or 2010 Lakers.
That 2004 Lakers team had a much, much better chance beating that 2004 Pistons team than the 2009 or 2010 Lakers because of Shaq. The Pistons winning is squarely on Kobe and his ego. And that's why that 2004 le was so sweet. The 2004 Pistons should not have beat the 2004 Lakers. That Lakers team should have dismantled that 2004 Pistons team. That Lakers squad should have been the 2004 NBA champions. Winning was so sweet because the Pistons really shouldn't have won. And they not only won, they were the ones who dismantled that internally fractured Lakers squad.
"Attack Medvedenko".
Yes Slava Medvedenko the same guy that started in game 5 of that series. The same guy that couldn't stay in the league. Don't forget rookie Luke Walton, Brian Cook and Kareem Rush getting important minutes!
Shaq was a complete liability on the defensive end of that series.
No the Lakers really shouldn't have won that series. But the 2010 Lakers are far and away a better team which is pretty obvious to anyone that actually understands basketball. 3, 4 straight final appearances speak for itself.
So a Lakers squad that struggled offensively against the Oklahoma City Thunder would easily dismantle arguably the greatest defense in the history of the league?
Yeah ok.
Missed the joke part of your post where you said the Pistons were going to ride Rip in the post.
That kind of fantasy re ation doesn't even deserve a reply to be honest. But I'll oblige.
35-36 year old, 6'1 Derek Fisher...
Rip Hamilton in the post. The key to beating the 2008-2010 Lakers.
There you have it, folks.
So no response to anything else?
Rip Hamilton is 6'7 and back then was capable of exploiting smaller guards in the post. Doesn't even have to get deep in the post. It was only a matter of getting in the midpost, turning around and shooting over Fisher. Old man Fisher hits big shots. Old man Fisher is a liability defensively, even against skinny ass Rip.
I know it's your m.o., much like other Laker fans, to not even get into a real basketball discussion and just end up trolling. You can avoid a debate that way. If you want to show how the past two Lakers championship teams would have "dismantled the out of" the 2004 Pistons, by all means, explain.
I'll reiterate that I'm not arguing that the 2004 Pistons definitely beat the last two Laker teams. But the past two Laker teams don't "dismantle the out of" them either. It would be a compe ive series. You can argue who would win. But neither team is crushing the other. Certainly not a Lakers team that struggled against teams like the Rockets, Thunder, and Suns the last two post seasons.
Your post was a joke though and wasn't a serious basketball discussion. Unless you seriously compared Medvedenko to a Gasol/Odom rotation.
In your fantasy land where Rip is going to get consistently deep post position, isolated on Derek Fisher is about the dumbest thing I have ever read in the zone era to be honest. Any post up would be miles away from the basket and the Lakers would live with that. Or they just stick him on Chauncey.
The 2010 Lakers easily had the best p/r defense in the playoffs and defend it head and shoulders better than the 04 Lakers ever could. Shaq refused or was too fat to show 99% of the time.
Btw, 2004 Lakers 3rd best player, 2nd best rebounder and most consistent interior defender was hurt.Let's give Malone's meniscus back and take Sheed's away and see how that series turns out tbh
Suns/Thunder/Rockets weren't a struggle, at all really.
But a Pistons team that struggled with the New Jersey Nets certainly isn't winning a series or getting past a game 6 against the current back to back NBA champions.
Well I know Pistons fans (for the most part) will get in intelligent basketball debates ...
But the troll and hangers on I did not have the time or energy for earlier because I had 3 conference cals but your post has definitely got my attention and I agree i think it would be very competetive and the thought of ron chasing Rip around screens is intriguing ...
this ...i respectfully disagree. kobe's ego was DEFINITELY a huge factor ...but you could also blame Shaq's, Phil's and to a lesser extent GP's and Malone's
That team ended up being way dysfunctional. It started with Kobe and the girl in colorado ...followed Shaq's comments in training camp ...followed by GP and Phil arguing about the triangle ...Malone's injury followed by running in to a pistons buzzsaw that was hitting on all cylinders (pun intended).
I think to put the winning or losing of that season "squarely on Kobe" overstates his blame when there was PLENTY of fingers to point (though I WOULD give Kobe the middle finger for that season ...shaq on the two seasons prior) and undercuts the Pistons as well. The Pistons were damn good.
I know it's revisionist history ...but if Rasheed rotates over to Horry the pistons (very likely) have their 2nd set of back2back les.
The pistons though lacking the SUPERDUPERtsar they played great team ball and earned my respect EVEN more that the Badboys because they did it with less and reminded me how dysfunctional the lakers were in comparison.
2004 and 2002 are the two seaons I hated the MOST!!!!
Last edited by Killakobe81; 08-02-2010 at 03:10 PM.
Better get better reading comprehension. I didn't compare Medvedenko to Gasol/Odom as far as being comparable players. I even specifically stated that Odom is a much better player. My point was that Rasheed making a concerted effort getting into the post on offense would have also been a problem for either. If you want to refute that, go ahead and exalt Odom's post defense, which would be foolish, or Gasol's ability to stop a good scoring big, when a broke down KG even had a couple of very good offensive games against him. Odom is a much better player than Medvedenko. My point was Rasheed back in 2004 would still have success against the Lakers front court of the last two seasons.
Perhaps you don't read enough of your own posts to think that was the dumbest thing you've read in the zone era... Perhaps you didn't actually pay attention to the mid 2000s Pistons team very much, which is likely. Because Billups was so good in the post against most point guards, many teams starting switching their shooting guards onto Chauncey and have their PGs running around trying to guard Rip. That actually often resulted in Rip starting to post many of those smaller point guards, and successfully so. Rip, even with his skinny ass, was actually pretty good in the post when he had a 5-6 inch height advantage of those small guards. It wasn't at all about getting deep post position. All Rip would do is get in the mid post and back them up enough where all he had to do was turn around and shoot over those smaller guards for a 12-15 foot midrange jumper. And Rip being one of the better midrange jumpshooters in the league at the time was very good at exploiting that advantage. But, I'll even give further explanation. Let's suppose Rip couldn't get in the post on Fisher, which he could. Even if that were the case, the Pistons could run 35-36 year old Fisher ragged through screens while chasing Rip, who was obviously very adept at doing that and exploit him that way. Either way, the Derek Fisher of the last two seasons would be a heavily exploitable defensive mismatch.In your fantasy land where Rip is going to get consistently deep post position, isolated on Derek Fisher is about the dumbest thing I have ever read in the zone era to be honest. Any post up would be miles away from the basket and the Lakers would live with that. Or they just stick him on Chauncey.
Fisher on Billups would be finished. That's precisely why I made the point about his problems if he had to switch off Billups.
Which is relevant how? Obviously you didn't pay much attention to those Pistons teams because the pick-and-roll was rarely used, especially with Ben Wallace, who Shaq was defending back in the 2004 Finals. Shaq's pick-and-roll defense wasn't exploited back then. And that wasn't even a major offensive weapon of those Pistons team. So why would the Lakers defense being good at defending the pick-and-roll make much of a difference?The 2010 Lakers easily had the best p/r defense in the playoffs and defend it head and shoulders better than the 04 Lakers ever could. Shaq refused or was too fat to show 99% of the time.
The Pistons offense was more predicated on working through Rip and his off the ball movement, running around screens, using curls, to get him open midrange looks and forcing the defense to collapse. The other major offensive set they would use would be exploiting a defensive mismatch in the post, which goes back to what I was talking about Fisher on either Rip or Tayshaun. Because all three of their perimeter players could score in the post and rarely were there teams that had solid defenders at all three perimeter positions, the Pistons regularly exploited the weakest perimeter defender.
So again, what's your point about the Lakers pick-and-roll defense?
Often a contention Laker fanboys love to argue.Btw, 2004 Lakers 3rd best player, 2nd best rebounder and most consistent interior defender was hurt.Let's give Malone's meniscus back and take Sheed's away and see how that series turns out tbh
You won't get much of an argument from me that that wasn't a factor. Not the deciding factor, but of course it was a factor.
Malone still played in I believe all but the last game, and he injured it mid way through the Minnesota series and that didn't stop the Lakers from winning that series. But, sure, that was a factor. The Pistons still stomped the Lakers in the Finals. I don't think a healthy Karl Malone changes the outcome of the series, but he would have helped the Lakers if healthy.
Any playoff series that goes 7 games is a struggle for the team that comes out on top. Moreover, specifically with that Rockets series, that Lakers team got blown out twice after the Rockets best player and only real match-up advantage in Yao Ming was lost for the series. That's an indictment on that Laker team not being able to finish the series more quickly without the opposing team's best player and starting center, especially for how highly you regard the Lakers front court.Suns/Thunder/Rockets weren't a struggle, at all really.
That Nets team was a SOB for the Pistons. Part of it was the Nets were in the Pistons' collective head. Part of it was that they matched up well at every position against the Pistons. But it's true that the Pistons struggled to beat that Nets team in 2004. Apparently a much tougher opponent than the 2004 Lakers. Go figure. I'm not one claiming the 2004 Pistons would have "dismantled the out of" the Lakers of the past two seasons. I only claim that it would be a compe ive series. The Lakers struggling against the teams I mentioned is more of an indictment on your claim than the Pistons struggling against the Nets is one of my claim that it would be compe ive.But a Pistons team that struggled with the New Jersey Nets certainly isn't winning a series or getting past a game 6 against the current back to back NBA champions.
I'll revise my statement slightly. Kobe wasn't the only reason the Lakers lost to the Pistons in 2004. But, I believe he's the biggest reason. The other things you mentioned definitely factored in. But, I'll put it this way. If Kobe doesn't go "Kobe" in that NBA Finals, even with all the other problems and the inner turmoil and Karl Malone's injury, even with all of that, if Kobe doesn't go "Kobe," the Lakers still beat the Pistons.
Coldplay strikes again, you're so effin dumb. The only reason the rockets went 7 games is because Yao got hurt mid series, and switched the gameplan on the Lakers
Shut the up, Coldplay
When people want to discredit Kobe:
"Kobe has one of the most stacked teams in NBA history, of course he won the le"
When people want to discredit the Lakers:
"The Lakers are one of the weakest le teams in NBA history, the [insert year/team from past decade] would destroy them."
Kobe leads both the most stacked team in NBA history and also the worst le team in NBA history, at once....depending on what the person's agenda is at the time.
Medvedenko had no business being in the NBA and he was starting in the NBA finals. Even mentioning him at all is hilarious and was basically rambling. Had no relavance whatsoever to the infinitely superior Gasol/Odom rotation that still hasn't lost a playoff series when Bynum starts next to them.
Yet much, much, much better offensive teams and supeiorr point guards have yet to exploit that mismatch to the point where it was the difference in a playoff series. PG is the least important defensive position on the floor and Fisher can be hidden when you have the defensive length the Lakers do.
Yeah just like Billups finished Fisher in 2009. The same season where he put up better O stats than 03/04. The Lakers don't mind letting opponent PGs beat them either. As long as they're containing the rest. Deron, Nash, Parker, blah blah. Chauncey would be a jump shooter - nothing the Lakers can't handle.
Well that just makes you look re ed. When it was used heavily in the 2004 finals. Shaq was also forced to switch on Rasheed at times as he was torching the out players that had no business being in the NBA; like Cook and Medved.
Something the 2010 Lakers are worlds better at than the 2004 Pistons ever were.
Of course you do. Often the delusion Piston fanboys love to believe.
Except the Lakers didn't struggle against those teams if you actually watched the games. While the Pistons were on the brink of elimination against a team featuring as their 1st option.
I like how Jammy feigns innonence and pretends to bring a serious take to the table when in reality it boiled down to, " Nah uh, Rip in the post. Kobe's ego."
Pretty much a blatant troll if I ever saw one. Nice try though.
Jam,
Kobe played badly in the 04 series but he's far from the sole reason that series went the way it did. People always talk about how he needed to take less shots, but the game that he took the least shot attempts (13 in game 3, 45 mins played) was the worst loss for the Lakers. They ended up getting smashed that game, and Kobe's lack of shooting assertiveness only highlighted the other huge problems with the team.
The truth is, there weren't any good offensive options besides Shaq and Kobe's one on one forays. The Pistons D was rotating too fast to get the "shooters" open looks. The best option on offense was Shaq, and everyone always blames Kobe for not getting him the ball enough. And while he could have done a better job, every other guard on the team seemed to ignore Shaq too. Fisher, Payton, Rush, they all looked Shaq off and either called their own number or swung the ball around the perimeter.
The Lakers just didn't have the personnel to win that series with the frontcourt in the shape that it was. Kobe shooting less maybe extends that series a game. It doesn't win it.
great analysis all the way around the real 21....
Why don't you start a thread showing your gay buttlove for himgreat analysis all the way around the real 21....
Medvedenko started 1 game of the 2004 NBA Finals. And that was when the series was all but decided. The mighty Lakers got handled well before Medvedenko was playing important minutes in games 4 and 5.
And you seriously have to have a learning disability to press this notion that I compared him to Gasol or Odom. I never compared him to Gasol. And I specifically stated Odom is a much better player. Point was and still is that Rasheed would have been successful against Odom in the post. Since when has Odom ever been known as a good low post defender? Never. Thank you. Rasheed back in 2004 would have outclassed and outquicked Andrew Bynum so let's not even bring his name into the discussion.
Defensive length helps very little against a team like the 2004 Pistons who relied heavily on jump shots for their offense. The top two scorers on that Pistons team were Billups and Hamilton, both jump shooters. The front court length of the Lakers is most advantageous against a team full of slashers or against primarily post-up bigs. Rasheed stretches out those bigs with his three point ability, bringing out bigs out by the three point line to allow for better spacing and for the perimeter guys to post up smaller guards when there are opportunities. The offense still ran through Hamilton and Billups to get open looks from the perimeter. Neither used drives and slashes too much for their offense. You can't hide a Fisher.Yet much, much, much better offensive teams and supeiorr point guards have yet to exploit that mismatch to the point where it was the difference in a playoff series. PG is the least important defensive position on the floor and Fisher can be hidden when you have the defensive length the Lakers do.
And at any rate, you forget that it wasn't about the Pistons offense that made the 2004 Pistons so good. They weren't a great offensive team. They were a lock down defensive team. They could pretty much play straight up at every position with very little double teaming if any. It wasn't not about the Pistons outscoring their opponents. It was about the fact they weren't going to let the other team score.
Billups didn't put up great offensive numbers in 2003-04, in the regular season or for most of the playoffs except for the NBA Finals. Billups hasn't really been an efficient offensive player. Denver's more open style of basketball compared to Larry Brown's possession basketball most certainly helped his stats in Denver. But that 2009 Denver team was nothing like the 2004 Pistons team. Can't really compare. Billups in the 2004 NBA Finals was just a different player. He was on one of the stretches few players get to experience. No way a 35-36 year old Fisher contains 2004 Billups. Billups was in the moment for that series.Yeah just like Billups finished Fisher in 2009. The same season where he put up better O stats than 03/04. The Lakers don't mind letting opponent PGs beat them either. As long as they're containing the rest. Deron, Nash, Parker, blah blah. Chauncey would be a jump shooter - nothing the Lakers can't handle.
Good to know that you didn't watch the 2004 NBA Finals. The Pistons primary offense under Larry Brown was dumping the ball down in the post to the exploitable match-up, swinging the ball side to side, and having Rip create off the ball movement through a series of cuts, curls through screens. The high pick-and-roll with Chauncey and Rasheed was used sometimes, mostly in the second half, but not all that often. That's how Rasheed would get some three point looks at the top of the key. Lol at Shaq being forced to switch on Rasheed maybe a handful of times in the series as your example of Shaq being put in the pick-in-roll. Rarely in that series. Very rarely. Rasheed had two good offensive games in the 2004 NBA Finals and a pretty good game 5 when the game got out of hand and he didn't need to try anymore. Rasheed's offense came either on jumpshots or in the post. They didn't come off of pick-and-roll plays with Shaq defending him. I plead with you to go back and watch the tapes of the 2004 NBA Finals. You are flat out lying about that.Well that just makes you look re ed. When it was used heavily in the 2004 finals. Shaq was also forced to switch on Rasheed at times as he was torching the out players that had no business being in the NBA; like Cook and Medved.
Ummmm the current Lakers squad have no extremely advantageous exploitable match-up against the 2004 Pistons. Rasheed was a premier low post defender back in 2004 as was Ben Wallace. Each individually defended Shaq in 2004, 2005, and 2006 with very little double team help and each did the same with Tim Duncan in 2005 and held Duncan to abnormally poor offensive shooting numbers. Back then Rasheed was actually still pretty quick too. Defending Gasol would not be a problem. Ben Wallace would have very little problem containing Bynum as well. Not to say they'd hold them scoreless. But neither guy would be putting up Shaq like numbers against that tandem. Prince back in 2004 was actually a solid defender for Kobe, and that was a younger, more athletic, and less banged up Kobe. In fact the best match-up the Lakers had to exploit offensively would be Ron Artest on Rip Hamilton. And 2010 Ron Artest offensively isn't someone the Lakers were going to try to milk.Something the 2010 Lakers are worlds better at than the 2004 Pistons ever were.
Delusional to think the current Lakers squad who had struggles against the Oklahoma City Thunder and got blown out by Houston minus Yao Ming twice would easily dismantle the out of arguably the greatest defensive team in the history of the league?Of course you do. Often the delusion Piston fanboys love to believe.
Delusion. I do not think you know what that word means.
Better to let undersized, non athletic forwards like Carl Landry and Luis Scola undress such a "great" Laker front court? If Richard Jefferson could play well against that 2004 Detroit Pistons team, what does that say about Kobe Bryant who got bent over by that same team?Except the Lakers didn't struggle against those teams if you actually watched the games. While the Pistons were on the brink of elimination against a team featuring as their 1st option.
You like to troll. I get it. You like to go to extremes to rile other posters. You think it's cute or funny or whatever. That's fine. I'm not really into exchanging insults. If that's your thing, fine. I can take insults, name-calling, being called any name you want. It's not that deep. But back up your comments. And don't fabricate the truth. And bring at least a tiny bit of objectivity every once in a while. I don't think you're actually stupid when it comes to basketball knowledge. I think you choose to be because you're like a lot of bag Laker fans. It's unnecessary. You can have your flame war with other posters. I won't get into your little internet piss contests. But I think you actually might be able to have some decent NBA discussion if you weren't such a jackass to people and just stuck to the actual basketball talk.I like how Jammy feigns innonence and pretends to bring a serious take to the table when in reality it boiled down to, " Nah uh, Rip in the post. Kobe's ego."
Pretty much a blatant troll if I ever saw one. Nice try though.
That's the thing with some of you Laker fans. There are several of you who actually have the capability of having a decent basketball debate with but are too pompous and obnoxious and clouded with some need to have some feeling of messageboard superiority that it's pretty much lost on you to have quality discussion.
Why not just have a decent basketball discussion? I don't see why it's so hard? There are a couple Laker fans that have no problem doing it.
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