I can't tell if Laker fans are serious when they say..

[JamStone]

Jam,

Kobe played badly in the 04 series but he's far from the sole reason that series went the way it did. People always talk about how he needed to take less shots, but the game that he took the least shot attempts (13 in game 3, 45 mins played) was the worst loss for the Lakers. They ended up getting smashed that game, and Kobe's lack of shooting assertiveness only highlighted the other huge problems with the team.

The truth is, there weren't any good offensive options besides Shaq and Kobe's one on one forays. The Pistons D was rotating too fast to get the "shooters" open looks. The best option on offense was Shaq, and everyone always blames Kobe for not getting him the ball enough. And while he could have done a better job, every other guard on the team seemed to ignore Shaq too. Fisher, Payton, Rush, they all looked Shaq off and either called their own number or swung the ball around the perimeter.

The Lakers just didn't have the personnel to win that series with the frontcourt in the shape that it was. Kobe shooting less maybe extends that series a game. It doesn't win it.

Problem with your game 3 example is that even though Kobe took his fewest shots, those extra shot opportunities weren't going to Shaq. Kobe took 13 FGA in game 3. Shaq took 14 and had only 2 FTA. It's not like Kobe taking fewer shots was an effort to work through Shaq. That game got out of hand pretty quickly. Game started out Pistons 10-2. For much of the second quarter, it was a 12-13 point lead. At half it was a 7 point difference, but the game felt like it was already over especially since the Lakers were struggling to score (32 points at halftime). The Lakers were never in that game 3, and Kobe knew it. His less than average amount of field goal attempts was more about how the game unfolded than him making a concerted effort to get Shaq the ball or to be unselfish with his teammates. Poor example and reference.

I'd agree that Shaq and Kobe were the best scorers, but Kobe didn't allow anyone else to get involved in scoring. Here are the breakdowns of field goal distribution for the Lakers in the 2004 NBA Finals:

Kobe: 113 FGA, 25 FTA in 231 minutes played (22.6 FGA/game)
Shaq: 84 FGA, 55 FTA in 213 minutes (16.8 FGA/gm)
Fisher: 36 FGA, 7 FTA in 101 minutes (7.2 FGA/gm)
Malone (4 games): 24 FGA, 6 FTA in 122 minutes (6.0 FGA/gm)
Payton: 28 FGA, 2 FTA in 168 minutes (5.6 FGA/gm)
George: 28 FGA, 4 FTA in 104 minutes (5.6 FGA/gm)

I mean really? Payton might not have been the same player he was a few years prior, but he might as well have been Smush Parker on offense. Payton averaged 12.5 FGA/gm and Malone averaged 9.5 FGA/gm in the regular season. And then they're supposed to still play well when not only that season but their whole careers they're used to getting consistent touches. Before the Finals, Malone averaged 11.4 FGA/gm and Payton averaged 9.3 FGA/gm in the playoffs. But all of a sudden they can't even touch the basketball. Heck guys like Medvedenko and Kareem Rush had almost as many FGA as Payton in less than half the minutes.

Kobe not going "Kobe" from jumpstreet in game 1 of the NBA Finals absolutely changed the outcome of that series.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Check PM's JameStone

[ambchang]

The 09 and 10 Lakers are the best team ever assembled over the last two years.

[Killakobe81]

I'll revise my statement slightly. Kobe wasn't the only reason the Lakers lost to the Pistons in 2004. But, I believe he's the biggest reason. (AGREE) The other things you mentioned definitely factored in. But, I'll put it this way. If Kobe doesn't go "Kobe" in that NBA Finals, even with all the other problems and the inner turmoil and Karl Malone's injury, even with all of that, if Kobe doesn't go "Kobe," the Lakers still beat the Pistons.

(Not sure but you maybe right, but that is ASKING a lot from kobe and that team was EXTREMELY dysfunctional)

[picc84]

Problem with your game 3 example is that even though Kobe took his fewest shots, those extra shot opportunities weren't going to Shaq. Kobe took 13 FGA in game 3. Shaq took 14 and had only 2 FTA. It's not like Kobe taking fewer shots was an effort to work through Shaq. That game got out of hand pretty quickly. Game started out Pistons 10-2. For much of the second quarter, it was a 12-13 point lead. At half it was a 7 point difference, but the game felt like it was already over especially since the Lakers were struggling to score (32 points at halftime). The Lakers were never in that game 3, and Kobe knew it. His less than average amount of field goal attempts was more about how the game unfolded than him making a concerted effort to get Shaq the ball or to be unselfish with his teammates. Poor example and reference.

What you say is true, but it doesn't disprove what I said. I agreed that Kobe didn't work to get the ball to Shaq. What I said is that none of the other players tried to either. All of the guards ignored Shaq for the most part, its just Bryant was the one who people noticed because he was the other go-to guy. They were looking Shaq off all series, and game 3 only served to illustrate that Kobe taking less shots didn't necessarily mean Shaq would get more....because no one was consistently looking for him. Nobody.

Kobe takes less shots in the other games, Fisher/Payton/George/Rush are still swinging the ball away from him. That was a problem all series that nobody acknowledged. Everyone was looking Shaq off.

I'd agree that Shaq and Kobe were the best scorers, but Kobe didn't allow anyone else to get involved in scoring. Here are the breakdowns of field goal distribution for the Lakers in the 2004 NBA Finals:

Kobe: 113 FGA, 25 FTA in 231 minutes played (22.6 FGA/game)
Shaq: 84 FGA, 55 FTA in 213 minutes (16.8 FGA/gm)
Fisher: 36 FGA, 7 FTA in 101 minutes (7.2 FGA/gm)
Malone (4 games): 24 FGA, 6 FTA in 122 minutes (6.0 FGA/gm)
Payton: 28 FGA, 2 FTA in 168 minutes (5.6 FGA/gm)
George: 28 FGA, 4 FTA in 104 minutes (5.6 FGA/gm)

First, lets be honest - 22.6 fga/game isn't that many. Kobe actually didn't take that many shots, it was just the nature of the shots that were costly and perturbed people. Bad, contested jumpers over 3 hands.

But lets not act like 23 shots per game for Kobe Bryant is a lot. He's had plenty of series with similar/higher shot attempts and others still got involved. Which brings me to the next point. How were the role players supposed to get involved with scoring when:

1. Most of them couldn't create their own shot, and were being denied clean looks off kickouts by the quickly rotating Pistons defense.

2. Malone's hampered mobility from his injury affected his own ability to create shots for himself, especially over the much taller Sheed, and relegated him mostly to a facilitator from the post when he was able to play.

3. Payton couldn't post up Billups, which was his preferred offense, and additionally had his minutes cut for Fisher because he was so ineffective.

And I think you'll see all of that reflected in their FG percentages. All of the guards outside of Kobe shot around 30% (30!) for the series, because they could neither create offense, shoot the ball with space, or make the few open attempts they did get. Devean George at 40%. Malone at 33%. Walton at 39%. These are the people you want to have a larger role against the Pistons defense? Doing what?

The only player to shoot a high% was Shaq, and that was by design. It wasn't Kobe who didn't "allow" anyone else to score, it was the defense. "Allow" makes it sound as if the other players were just waiting to go off, and that couldn't be further from the truth.

Kobe could have cut way back on his shot attempts and not a thing would have changed - Shaq would have converted his 17 shots/game at a high % as all the other players continued to look him off, and everyone else still would have struggled to get any good shot attempt off, let alone a high % one, against the Piston defense.

I mean really? Payton might not have been the same player he was a few years prior, but he might as well have been Smush Parker on offense. Payton averaged 12.5 FGA/gm and Malone averaged 9.5 FGA/gm in the regular season. And then they're supposed to still play well when not only that season but their whole careers they're used to getting consistent touches. Before the Finals, Malone averaged 11.4 FGA/gm and Payton averaged 9.3 FGA/gm in the playoffs. But all of a sudden they can't even touch the basketball. Heck guys like Medvedenko and Kareem Rush had almost as many FGA as Payton in less than half the minutes.

Explained above.

Kobe not going "Kobe" from jumpstreet in game 1 of the NBA Finals absolutely changed the outcome of that series.

Maybe from 4-2 to 4-1. Not from a championship. There's a reason that Pistons team is regarded as the best defense in NBA history, and they were holding teams to crazy like 70ppg or whatever for stretches. And its not because they "allowed" guys to get involved in scoring. Especially not offensively limited role players such as those playing with Shaq and Kobe.

[Indazone]

Shut the up, Coldplay

Good one D*****bag John, the gum on the bottom of my shoe is smarter than you.

[duhoh]

You like to troll. I get it. You like to go to extremes to rile other posters. You think it's cute or funny or whatever. That's fine. I'm not really into exchanging insults. If that's your thing, fine. I can take insults, name-calling, being called any name you want. It's not that deep. But back up your comments. And don't fabricate the truth. And bring at least a tiny bit of objectivity every once in a while. I don't think you're actually stupid when it comes to basketball knowledge. I think you choose to be because you're like a lot of bag Laker fans. It's unnecessary. You can have your flame war with other posters. I won't get into your little internet piss contests. But I think you actually might be able to have some decent NBA discussion if you weren't such a jackass to people and just stuck to the actual basketball talk.

That's the thing with some of you Laker fans. There are several of you who actually have the capability of having a decent basketball debate with but are too pompous and obnoxious and clouded with some need to have some feeling of messageboard superiority that it's pretty much lost on you to have quality discussion.

Why not just have a decent basketball discussion? I don't see why it's so hard? There are a couple Laker fans that have no problem doing it.

JamStone just crapped a huge deuce on 21.

LA fans who can actually talk basketball usually have smart takes. I actually enjoy reading those takes, especially for long-time LA fans. Seriously, the Lakeshow grabs a 3-peat in their height, and then crashes to near-rock bottom, and their return to prominence is great for the fanbase.

It's not so different from SA's 97-98 season. Just sayin brah

[Killakobe81]

What you say is true, but it doesn't disprove what I said. I agreed that Kobe didn't work to get the ball to Shaq. What I said is that none of the other players tried to either. All of the guards ignored Shaq for the most part, its just Bryant was the one who people noticed because he was the other go-to guy. They were looking Shaq off all series, and game 3 only served to illustrate that Kobe taking less shots didn't necessarily mean Shaq would get more....because no one was consistently looking for him. Nobody.

Kobe takes less shots in the other games, Fisher/Payton/George/Rush are still swinging the ball away from him. That was a problem all series that nobody acknowledged. Everyone was looking Shaq off.



First, lets be honest - 22.6 fga/game isn't that many. Kobe actually didn't take that many shots, it was just the nature of the shots that were costly and perturbed people. Bad, contested jumpers over 3 hands.

But lets not act like 23 shots per game for Kobe Bryant is a lot. He's had plenty of series with similar/higher shot attempts and others still got involved. Which brings me to the next point. How were the role players supposed to get involved with scoring when:

1. Most of them couldn't create their own shot, and were being denied clean looks off kickouts by the quickly rotating Pistons defense.

2. Malone's hampered mobility from his injury affected his own ability to create shots for himself, especially over the much taller Sheed, and relegated him mostly to a facilitator from the post when he was able to play.

3. Payton couldn't post up Billups, which was his preferred offense, and additionally had his minutes cut for Fisher because he was so ineffective.

And I think you'll see all of that reflected in their FG percentages. All of the guards outside of Kobe shot around 30% (30!) for the series, because they could neither create offense, shoot the ball with space, or make the few open attempts they did get. Devean George at 40%. Malone at 33%. Walton at 39%. These are the people you want to have a larger role against the Pistons defense? Doing what?

The only player to shoot a high% was Shaq, and that was by design. It wasn't Kobe who didn't "allow" anyone else to score, it was the defense. "Allow" makes it sound as if the other players were just waiting to go off, and that couldn't be further from the truth.

Kobe could have cut way back on his shot attempts and not a thing would have changed - Shaq would have converted his 17 shots/game at a high % as all the other players continued to look him off, and everyone else still would have struggled to get any good shot attempt off, let alone a high % one, against the Piston defense.



Explained above.



Maybe from 4-2 to 4-1. Not from a championship. There's a reason that Pistons team is regarded as the best defense in NBA history, and they were holding teams to crazy like 70ppg or whatever for stretches. And its not because they "allowed" guys to get involved in scoring. Especially not offensively limited role players such as those playing with Shaq and Kobe.

great post.

Like i said:

1. Pistons were a GREAT defensive team ...
2. That Laker team Was DYSFuNCTIONAL ...Kobe vs. Shaq, GP vs. Triangle, Malone vs. age,
3. Even if kobe feeds Shaq more i doubt we win that series ...

As picc said:
1. What we gonna feed Rush and Walton more?
2. Shaq was effective no doubt about it on offense ...and of course you want to have him get a more touches ...but you can not just compare FGA ESPECIALLY if there is FTA that are not factored in. Also what about passes in to the post that lead to kickouts?

Look im not absolving kobe by any stretch ...and i know (much like with miami this year) EVERYONE thought we were the favorites THAT year ...

BUT the Pistons were the BETTER TEAM, played better defense and were not really a two man team like the Lakers were by the finals, due to Payton's struggles and Malone's injury.

Kobe was an A$$ that season and his Colorado mess sure did not help matters ...

But let's credit the Pistons and share the blame on the Lakers ...i was in L.A. it was a soap opera every other day (and not all kobe) as any honest lakers fan will tell you.