Against good players I agree. Against the type of player that calls a raise with bad hand from a player who's been silent for almost an hour.
Never.
If after a few hours (live averaging maybe 20 hands an hour so 60 hands) you have the hand reading skills you are portraying that should be standard you should move to Vegas and become a pro.
To check raise? To disguise their hand? Why would someone with top pair bet out each and every time? Considering the type of players they could have Qx (x being a rag) and they just want to call down for a show down.
I see that all time.
This would make sense if there wasn't a flush and a straight draw on the board. Why would you check raise or disguise a hand that's only going to potentially get weaker as the turn and the river come out? Why would you check/call to a hand that can have you drawing dead when the next card comes off?
You check/raise or slow call in a situation where you are trying to lure the other players in because if the hand goes to the river, it's not going to affect your chances of taking the pot much, because you've got the best hand on lock-down and you want as many people in the pot as possible. If you've only got a high pair or even trips and you're staring at a flop like that, you want people OUT of the pot, because they have a good chance of beating you if you let them stay in.
Its funny because on one hand you say these guys are bad then you expect them to have well thought out reasons for their actions. Bad players are bad players for many reasons and trying to act as if they only do these moves in the right situations is such a bad mistake.
I think your characterization of when to use a check/raise is bad to begin with, but its also besides the point (or when to call and disguise your hand for that matter).
You are correct to an extent in saying that you want people out of the pot because your hand is marginal but that doesn't mean its worth a bet. You have 2 cards to go and your hand does have some significant showdown value but if you bet and you are called by the person immediately after you the chances that the others call IF they have draws is much greater now because they can do so correctly.
So what do you do on the turn? Fire again? Check? If you check how does that make your hand look? Also the pot is much bigger now so if you fire again how much of your stack are you committing on a marginal hand if you haven't improved on the turn? What if its a scare card on the turn that completes a draw? What if a king peals off? You're looking at a big pot four handed with such a weak hand and you STILL have another round of betting to go.
PS - The questions posed are rhetorical.
Last edited by MannyIsGod; 08-06-2010 at 03:19 PM.
I didn't say they were bad. I said they were limping into the pot with hands that haven't been made yet.
Respectfully, it would be hard to encapsulate my philosophy on check/raising in a serious discussion in person, let alone in a few words online. Admittedly I could be a little more careful and articulate about how I would play in a more typical example.I think your characterization of when to use a check/raise is bad to begin with, but its also besides the point (or when to call and disguise your hand for that matter).
But that's the read he made. He knew it was worth betting into because of how the other players were calling. Of course it's not something he absolutely needed to bet on, and I've agreed that it's not something he should do all the time, but in this case, this one instance, it made sense.You are correct to an extent in saying that you want people out of the pot because your hand is marginal but that doesn't mean its worth a bet. You have 2 cards to go and your hand does have some significant showdown value but if you bet and you are called by the person immediately after you the chances that the others call IF they have draws is much greater now because they can do so correctly.
All the more reason to get them out of the pot as soon as possible. If they aren't going to fold even if they're beat, then you don't need to worry about them because you're going to eventually catch the nuts and wreck their stack anyway.So what do you do on the turn? Fire again? Check? If you check how does that make your hand look? Also the pot is much bigger now so if you fire again how much of your stack are you committing on a marginal hand if you haven't improved on the turn? What if its a scare card on the turn that completes a draw? What if a king peals off? You're looking at a big pot four handed with such a weak hand and you STILL have another round of betting to go.
Don't tap the aquarium imo
It's also worth mentioning that it's hard to give the OP sound advice when we don't know what the pot size was relative to the blinds.
However, the standard play here is to check it down and hope to eliminate the short stack so everyone moves up in money. You actually want someone, even if it's not yourself, to make a strong hand to guarantee the short stack gets eliminated. If you make a big bet and force a hand like Q9 out only to lose to the short stack's JJ or Q3, you quadrupled up a player who had no business doing so and kept him in the tourney. A big bet in this situation should usually only be made with TPTK or stronger. Furthermore, MPTK isn't worth building and defending a side pot for.
And Cry Havoc's advice in this thread is terrible.
This is why you don't want to knock out the field with a big bet. Assuming the shortstack pushed with the top 50% of possible hands, and your opponents called with the top 30%, here's your equity:
6,738,855,939 games 142.823 secs 47,183,268 games/sec
Board: Qs Tc 7d
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 34.464% 33.05% 01.42% 2227113655 95398686.00 { AsTs }
Hand 1: 20.439% 19.44% 01.00% 1309738590 67610115.33 { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q7s+, J8s+, T8s+, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, 54s, A9o+, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }
Hand 2: 22.530% 21.33% 01.20% 1437650885 80643916.33 { 22+, A2s+, K5s+, Q7s+, J8s+, T8s+, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, A7o+, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }
Hand 3: 22.567% 21.38% 01.18% 1441048301 79694727.00 { 22+, A2s+, K5s+, Q7s+, J8s+, T8s+, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, 54s, A7o+, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+ }
Now if you knock the field out and get heads up with the shortstack, here's how the numbers change:
539,550 games 0.008 secs 67,443,750 games/sec
Board: Qs Tc 7d
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 69.212% 68.42% 00.79% 369186 4247.00 { AsTs }
Hand 1: 30.788% 30.00% 00.79% 161870 4247.00 { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J3s+, T5s+, 95s+, 86s+, 75s+, 65s, A2o+, K4o+, Q6o+, J7o+, T7o+, 98o }
You're a 2 to 1 favorite to take the pot down, however your opponent is getting 3 to 1 on his money. Therefore, it's a HUGE mistake to get heads up with him. He stands to profit on the play in the long run. But by keeping everyone in, he's now more than a 3 to 1 dog, so it's -EV for him.
I can't even explain how effective bluff works here. Good luck explaining tournament EV.
How about explaining fold equity, the gap concept, and the fundamental theorem of poker?
You post at 2+2?
Sup bro.
When I played more I did. I played for a living for about five years and I posted on there but I read and PMed more than I posted.
I always felt I had more to gain by reading there and listening than by offering my insights.
Did you read what the OP said? He knew the guy who was all-in had nothing, because he had been playing horribly all night.
Oh and the fundamental theorem of poker doesn't really apply here because after a few hours you always know what your opponent holds.
How can he be sure he holds "nothing?"
You can only put him on a range, and in this case, his opponent can be holding anything.
Bad players don't get cards obviously.
Furthermore, lol donkaments.
LOL Spurstalkaments
I didn't read much after the first page here.
But it was a bad move. Simple as that.
In that situation, you want to move up a place to move up in the cash. You're best bet with that is to have 4 hands in the pot after the river to up your odds of beating the player that is at risk for his tournament life. 5 vs 1 > 1 vs 1
You just got lucky that you ended up beating him.
You don't bet there unless you have a hand you don't want outdrawn there. Definitely not with mid-pair top kicker with a backdoor flush draw (which is a ty draw and isn't even really considered a draw). It's called betting into a dead pot, you aren't betting to win the money on the flop there because you still have to go down to the river and showdown.
Your buddy was right and I would have been pissed too...again, you just got lucky that you still ended up beating him with a weak hand on the flop instead of knocking another player out that might have beaten him.
Also this is basic poker tournament knowledge, not necessarily a rule or secret between players. Funny too how people say "Play to win!" and advocate betting there. It's not the right play.
Not to mention betting on the flop is either going to win you nothing on the flop (because you will get the money you bet back, and still have to go down to the river) or you're putting your money out there and basically saying "Take this money" (because you didn't have a good hand) and the only people that will call you or raise you there at a tournament like that are people that will EASILY have mid pair top kicker beat.
Lol, nothing with two cards to come...
ur friend and any complainers should go suck a
when gambling, there is no friend, family or foe, its every man for himself...
if the game is to hard? step back and go home
Still makes no sense. You're contradicting yourself by saying that any complainers should suck a (implying that what they have to say) but then say its every man for himself.
If the OP had the "every man for himself" mentality then he would be looking to move up in the cash to get closer to winning the tournament (or at the very least making more money). Betting in the situation at question is not the right play because it lessens the OP's chances of making more money and/or knocking a player out.
That's what some people need to understand.
By your rationale, everyone called the all-in, not my pre-flop raise, b/c everyone wanted to knock out the short stack. But not everyone called, 4 people called, 5 folded.I'm actually very much playing the people. All four of them. And the fact that after all his folding they still all called his raise preflop. A lot of respect he's getting right? All the reason to believe he's going to get it post flop, right?
Short Stack had low-suited connectors and panicked w/ the blinds at 600-1200 w. only 2700 left in his stack. It was easy to put him on that play.
All in all- I think I made a bad play that worked out. My post-flop 10k raise knocked everyone else out but the guy with the high-str8 draw. He missed, but he had better odds than I did on the turn and the river.
Anyway -- thanks for the advice AnthonyM, CH, and MIG. I'm inexperienced in tournaments and the analysis can only help. I knew at the time that my play was a gamble, but I went for it anyway, based on the reads I made of the other players. My reads were thrown off by the fact that nobody re-raised the all-in but, fortunately, I threw everyone else off by representing a monster on my post-flop bet.
EDIT: also ty to cannabis and midnightpulp (even though you're a laker fan)
I've been out of town all weekend and away from the discussion but I haven't been able to get that play off my mind.
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