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Scottie Pippen did something similar. He went from 19 million to the veterans exception. I wonder what the biggest is.
Is this the greatest drop in pay for any player in NBA history from one year to the next?
Scottie Pippen did something similar. He went from 19 million to the veterans exception. I wonder what the biggest is.
I don't understand Mcgrady's plan. He said he wanted to sign for a contender.Now he's signing for a possible lottery team loaded with perimeter players? I don't get it. Maybe Rip or Tayshaun will be traded, but I still dont see how this move will help him revive his career.
he could sign with any of the contenders for the minimum...
Marbury comes to mind.
He made roughly $20.8 million on his last paycheck with the Knicks, then signed with the Celtics after clearing waivers for a proprated share of $1.3 mil and finally $100,000 to play in China. But I understand there were other non monetary deals in hand (Opening Starbury shops in China and maybe expanding his apparel overseas) and recently signed an extension with the CBA's Brave Dragons for an undisclosed amount,
And speaking of just NBA salary drop off, Jordan made $33,140.00 as a Bull 97 and just $1,000.000 in Washington in 2001.
Would he whine any more then the rest of them are? It really doesn't matter this team is not going any where soon stuck in the lotto with no stars. My point was this is not a crippling move like signing Eddy Curry who had a bad ticker.
Dumars is clearly walking down the path of Isiah Thomas after the 2009 off-season debacle of signing Gordon and CV to big contracts. His only saving grace was that 2004 championship, only because Sheed stayed focused and pulled his head out of his ass for that season.
Allan Houston went from making $19 million to not earning an NBA paycheck.
I think what makes the drop stunning is that T-Mac is still only 31 years old.
Dumars has made plenty of mistakes the last few seasons, but there's a huge difference as to why you can't compare him to "Isiah" bad. While he's given out bad contracts, he's nowhere flirting with being $30+ million over the luxury tax. With the bad contracts, he's maintained a prudent financial outlook to the payroll, keeping it under the luxury tax. Part of what made Isiah was so bad was that he kept throwing more and more money on the problem with the Knicks..
Chiefy, catchin' Jammie in the high grass.
tee, hee.
The thing is, the Knicks were ready to spend and Isiah had the free reign to hand out contracts like candy plus the fact that they were already in a bad situation when Isiah took over. Dumars made his share of mistakes and they were huge. He did a good job changing the team into champions and after that since Ben Wallace left, it was all downhill.
Dumars took over in 2000 and the team record was 42-40 after the 1999-2000 season. He had Grant Hill, yes I know what happened, and Jerry Stackhouse.
Isiah took over the Knicks in 2003 and the record was 37-45 in the 2002-2003 season. As we all know, Latrell Sprewell left the team to join the Timberwolves for 2004. Besides that, the roster was absolute crap with the best player being Allan Houston and we all know what happened to him. When Isiah left, the team, although while ty, still had some good basketball talent in David Lee (his draft pick), Danilo Gallinari, Wilson Chandler, Zach Randolph (who was traded by Walsh for expirings), Jamal Crawford (same thing as Randolph), and a headcase in Marbury, although he was pretty damn good when Isiah first got him. And a piece of in Eddy Curry. At least it turned out into Amar'e and a bunch of young talent now under Walsh, who used the assets Isiah left him. He had free reign to do whatever he wanted, which was what caused him to fail, his lack of discipline to control himself from his urges.
G.I. Joe takin' the lead pipe cinch.
Just shows to go ya.
Ummm you didn't address my point of distinction at all. Not even a little bit, distinguishing the two. All of what you wrote has nothing to do with money management.
The Knicks owners gave Isiah free reign to spend and give out contracts while the Pistons owners didn't allow Dumars to do that. It has more to do with the owners when it comes to money, not the GMs, which was part of the reason Ben Wallace left for bigger money in Chicago. I don't see where "money management" really comes into play here. In the end, the owner needs to sign the check and everything contract related probably goes through them too.
Is it his level of play, or his at ude that's keeping him from getting a job? Although he is a diva, I still find it astonishing that there is nobody who feels they can use his services other than Detroit. I would love to see him as a backup sg for the Rockets if it is for the league minimum.
Yer absolutely adorable, Franch.
I try.
First of all, Dolan giving Isiah free reign to throw money away doesn't mean he had to do it.
Second, Dumars being financially responsible was what Bill Davidson wanted, but Dumars as well. He was given the authority to give out max contracts if he thought it was the right move. He offered Grant Hill a max contract. He offered Chris Webber a max contract. He didn't make outrageous contract offers to just anyone. That's not only on some owner mandate.
Also, it's interesting how you tried to spin it in your earlier post how Dumars took over a decent 42-40 team but after that 2000 summer, the Pistons went 32-50. Dumars had to completely retool the Pistons as well. You tried to make it seem like you were acknowledging the situation talking about Grant Hill leaving, yet you still mention the 42-40 season with Grant Hill, to make it seem he had a much, much better team than the 2003/04 Knicks Isiah took over. Dumars allowed for contracts to expire instead of trying to flip them for bigger contracts. Being financially responsible doesn't just put it on the owner. And being given free reign doesn't absolve Isiah for making a bad situation much, much worse.
I don't think Dumars has done a very good job at all the last 3-4 seasons as a GM with many of his personnel moves. But comparing him to Isiah is short-sighted and naive.
First of all, Isiah made a lot of bad moves financially, but he wanted to improve the team, which of course didn't happen. Who knows what might happen if Dumars has free reign? We can only speculate. For now, Dumars obviously kicks Thomas in the nuts for that.
Next, on team record, you realize Latrell Sprewell left for the Wolves and that Hill left the Pistons, and both teams sucked. I made the reasoning that Dumars did make the team better to win a championship, which required a lot of luck with Ben Wallace, Sheed, Billups and the rest of the guys,which wasn't only on him. It went downhill after 2006 and he was never the same again. I am not saying he is going to be Isiah Thomas, which was only a reference to ty moves. I may be exeggarating but Dumars' last 4 years, aside from drafting Rodney Stuckey, was full of extensions, trades and signings.
Sure as seems that way imo. Pistons seem to be going the way of their city by struggling to stay afloat and making bad business moves.
I hope you're not comparing 2000 Grant Hill to 2003 Latrell Sprewell and their respective value to their teams.
You can say any good move made by a GM has some luck to do with it. You can say every bad move made by a GM has some bad luck to do with it. If you're going to start making arguments about GMs being lucky, then it's futile to even argue.
Dumars has done a poor job lately. He's nowhere near the level of Isiah Thomas as a front office executive. To make the comparison was ridiculous.
No. I am saying that the situation of teams was comparable, both ended up with . Joe Dumars did a good job turning that team into champions, which took a lot of luck mainly because Ben Wallace went undrafted, Billups was a journeyman then. Those two members were the leadership and soul of the team. And after 2006, his track record was terrible, which was the year Ben went to Chicago.
Isiah was terrible, but there was something extremely crazy about the 2010 off-season that made contracts expire in 2011 considered bad.
Isiah had these contracts, lol Isiah the ing dumbass.
Eddy Curry, Zach Randolph, Jamal Crawford, Jared Jeffries all expire in 2011.
The combined salary would have been at least 44 million, by my count. Thank goodness Walsh got rid of almost all of it.
Back to Dumars, without looking at his past accomplishments prior to 2005, the track record was terrible, not close to Isiah only because of money issues, because he had some constraint or that no one wanted to sign with Detroit. He clearly showed no constraint in 2009 off-season though, burning cap space on a 6th man and back-up scoring PF. I seriously now start to doubt his abilities to make a winning team without some stroke of serious luck like Monroe becoming a 20-10 player or something like that.
Either way, Isiah was horrible, but not as horrible as you or the media made it out to be, nor was Dumars a good GM post 2005. Not saying Dumars is comparable to Isiah but the things he has been doing shows otherwise. He seems to have no goal, signs old veterans which will not allow his young guys like Daye and Jerebko get playing time and cripple the team with extensions to Hamilton (before trading Billups), extending Maxiell, signing Gordon after locking Hamilton up and signing CV to that bloated contract. Dumars has a reputation of being a good GM in the early 2000s, but is destroying it with his recent deals.
Sons, lol @ McGrady being at this low point. I hope Detroit does give him a chance just so I can see how that works out. It kinda sucks he'll never be good again, especially since he's only like 30. What a shame.
One, the Knicks were bad, very bad, before Isiah Thomas took over. The one quality that defines Thomas is his cronyism. Mark Aguirre has been at every stop. John Salley, Oliver Miller played for him in Toronto. Darrell Walker and Don Chaney are coaching favorites of his. He uses his connections in the Detroit area to scout, and he tries to find point guards that remind him of himself.
But let's try and make a better case for why Dumars is more like Isiah Thomas than you may believe.
--Name chasing: Trading Chauncey Billups for the superstar name, Allen Iverson. This is something that New York did a lot (Steve Francis comes to mind). They brought in players that had names elsewhere--like the Yankees without a brain for basketball. Now, he's chasing a washed-up Tracy McGrady.
--Overpaying for mediocre guards. In New York it was sending everything and the kitchen sink to Phoenix for Stephon Marbury. It was signing Jamal Crawford to a ridiculously high contract. In Detroit, it's re-signing Rip Hamilton to a 3-year, 45 million dollar contract and then signing Ben Gordon for 60 million to be his backup (4 years of which Hamilton is under contract).
--Having ridiculously high standards for the players. In Detroit, this is all about Ben Gordon, Kwame Brown, and Rodney Stuckey, soon to be Greg Monroe. Because they are young, no criticism can be made about their games. Management is convinced they are building towards something but do nothing to compliment the games of the players they have. If they put up great stats, there is no room for complaint.
--Lack of interior presence. Larry Brown was hired as coach and Kurt Thomas was shipped to the Phoenix Suns. The mixture of talent is about the same in Detroit. No one upfront with beef and it's because the backcourt is making too much money.
--Pricing players out of trades. There may be interest for Tayshaun Prince, but Dumars wants to rip a team off. There may be interest for Rip Hamilton, but no one wants to pay him that contract extension. This means they are stuck with talent that doesn't fit, unable to make a change to help the team, and tell us everyday that it's because Dumars can't find a trading partner as if he has nothing to do with that.
--Never taking a step back to make a move forward. If I were GM, I would dump at least Villanueva, Hamilton, and probably Gordon. I would dump their salary, try and get draft picks. I would get a high draft pick from all this (from all the losing) and salary cap room not for next summer--but to get the pricing for the players back in alignment. I would waive some of these players I acquired if they couldn't help my team, and bring in veterans on the free agent list to compete with my young guys. This inability to see the big picture is common to both Dumars the past three seasons and Isiah Thomas. They are trying to win all the short-term battles, and in doing so, their teams are losing, and the GM has no credibility because they have been lying or have been out-of-touch too long. A mistake is one thing. Never admitting the mistake is costly.
When has Joe Dumars ever admitted why he traded Billups? Has he told us that Ben Gordon had a bad season and needs to improve this year? Has he told us anything but the best-case scenario for all his transactions?
This is what seperated Dumars from his peers. He could look into a camera and say "I don't know." He could look into a camera and say "that really hurt us last season" without ripping the player's mother, his character, and his children. He could say "I thought (explanation), but obviously, it didn't work out that way."
He was honest and he wasn't a salesman. Thomas has always stalled and stalled and put a happy face on it and lied and then told everyone that his critics are mean and baseless. Dumars is more like Thomas than he is like his old self.
Giving a 25 yr old PF with career averages of 13.1/6 7 mil a year is your idea of a bloated contract?
Jerebko averaged 28 mins a game last year.. exactly what signing is not allowing him to get mins?
I really hate it when people just say someone lucked into building a championship team. You aren't giving Dumars credit for seeing what others didn't in the player that was undrafted or the journey man.
If we are going to break things down like that any GMs moves can be written up to luck.
Dumars is far from a bad GM. He realized that we weren't going to get any of the top FAs this summer if we kept the cap space. He also had enough vision to see that after those FAs were gone people would be overpaying for those that are left. Where the market is set right now Charlie V is a bargin and Gordon is exactly were he should be.
Dumars built a team that in his first year as GM won 32 games and in his second year had the team built up as a 50 win team. In three years he had a team in the Eastern Confrence finals.. he then building a completely different team had the pistons in 6 straight Confrence finals, 2 finals, and 1 ring.
That is not luck. This is a case of fans thinking that a championship team can be built over night when you aren't building around a superstar when you are remaking your team (like duncan).
Dumars lucked into building those teams as much as the spurs lucked into building all of their championship teams.. Or are we not to discredit the spurs GM for lucking into a number one pick and lucking into two late picks being as good as they were?
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