ESPN - Western Conference Predictions

[Killakobe81]

Why do you keep bringing up 2008? Chris Paul's 2008-2009 season was better than his 2007-2008 season. , any season Chris Paul played is better than Deron William's best, from a statistical point of view. You act as if there is this huge drop off and you have written him off before you even know how he'll play.

Defend your boy gentleman he is a great player ...

But who cares if he hasnt led the league in something?
Duncan may not of led big men in the league in rebounding, blocks or FG% some (most) years but he was STILL better than the guys that were ...

Stats only tell part of the story.
We can agree to disagaree here but truth of the matter is as a PG Dwill has taken teams further ... (college and pro)
He is a better shooter (and dont give me that Lebron efficiency crap, watch teh games)
And better and more versatile defender ...who can guard 2's for short stretches ...Paul cant cuz he is too short ..

[TD 21]

I think prime dirk > prime cp3 but there are people who are underrating paul

How the are the spurs seeded 3? They are one year older and granted the past season was riddled with injuries and they have added splitter but

the team (esp. duncan and manu) one year older > injury free + splitter season

Prime Paul is better than prime Nowitzki. Nowitzki could have never done with the '08 Hornets what Paul did with them. Nowitzki is a vastly overrated, one dimensional player. I know he's a very efficient player and his stats look nice, but sometimes you have to look beyond that. This guy is a certified choker in games that actually matter and can't affect the game if he's not scoring.

The Spurs were the third best team in the West by the end of last season. Forget about them being the 7th seed. The first 2/3 of their season was ostensibly an extended training camp.

Also, considering how close 2-8 was in the West, anyone who thinks there's a significant gap between any of those teams is a fool. The point is, it's not like it would take a lot for the Spurs to go from 7 to 3. Next season, all the stars are aligned for them to hit the ground running.

I'm not going to assume Duncan will drop another level. If anything, he should be playing less games, a few less minutes but more importantly, a lot less arduous minutes, which should preserve him better throughout the season. When he's fresh, he can still dominate a game as much as any big man in the league. Ginobili's age is irrelevant. He's perilously close to his peak, so there's no point in even bringing up his age. Why is is that with Bryant and Nowitzki, their age rarely get's mentioned, but with Ginobili it always does?

Too many Spurs fans have become too critical of this team, picking them apart relentlessly, yet building up virtually every other credible team in the league as if they're all significantly better. I'm not saying the Spurs should be mentioned with the Lakers, Heat, Celtics and Magic (not at this writing, at least), but acting like there's no chance they could get home court or advance deep into the playoffs is ridiculous.

[BadOdor]

Sons I ain't hating on paul, great player, but let's be honest here: he can put all the stats he wants, at the end of the day he chocked big time in the biggest game he played(lol jannero pargo 14 4th quarter shots) and missed the playoffs in the consecutive season.

I'm not saying hd can' redeem himself, he's good enough player to win a le, possibly even as a number 1 option, but it's not preposterous to say dwill>paul. He owns him head to head and is clutch as well....

[BadOdor]

Prime Paul is better than prime Nowitzki. Nowitzki could have never done with the '08 Hornets what Paul did with them. Nowitzki is a vastly overrated, one dimensional player. I know he's a very efficient player and his stats look nice, but sometimes you have to look beyond that. This guy is a certified choker in games that actually matter and can't affect the game if he's not scoring.

The Spurs were the third best team in the West by the end of last season. Forget about them being the 7th seed. The first 2/3 of their season was ostensibly an extended training camp.

Also, considering how close 2-8 was in the West, anyone who thinks there's a significant gap between any of those teams is a fool. The point is, it's not like it would take a lot for the Spurs to go from 7 to 3. Next season, all the stars are aligned for them to hit the ground running.

I'm not going to assume Duncan will drop another level. If anything, he should be playing less games, a few less minutes but more importantly, a lot less arduous minutes, which should preserve him better throughout the season. When he's fresh, he can still dominate a game as much as any big man in the league. Ginobili's age is irrelevant. He's perilously close to his peak, so there's no point in even bringing up his age. Why is is that with Bryant and Nowitzki, their age rarely get's mentioned, but with Ginobili it always does?

Too many Spurs fans have become too critical of this team, picking them apart relentlessly, yet building up virtually every other credible team in the league as if they're all significantly better. I'm not saying the Spurs should be mentioned with the Lakers, Heat, Celtics and Magic (not at this writing, at least), but acting like there's no chance they could get home court or advance deep into the playoffs is ridiculous.

lol at "prime paul>prime dirk".

Prime dirk took a very average team to the finals. He got as close to a le as you possibly can without actually winning them.

Yeah, he choked, but so did paul.

Dirk skull ed your team in 06, basically by himself.....but I guess that game 7 performance didn't actually "matter", right?

speaking of choking, how bout duncan's free throw % against phoenix?

I'd say getting swept by the suns is pretty high up there on the embarrassment list.

[TD 21]

lol at "prime paul>prime dirk".

Prime dirk took a very average team to the finals. He got as close to a le as you possibly can without actually winning them.

Yeah, he choked, but so did paul.

Dirk skull ed your team in 06, basically by himself.....but I guess that game 7 performance didn't actually "matter", right?

speaking of choking, how bout duncan's free throw % against phoenix?

I'd say getting swept by the suns is pretty high up there on the embarrassment list.

Nowitzki is overrated in large part because he's white. Let's be honest, every time there's a white guy who's above average, damn near everyone defends him non stop and makes him out to be better than he is.

An average team? Are you insane? They lacked a 2nd (or 1st, to be honest) option for a championship caliber team, but that team had a bloated payroll, good depth and plenty of firepower. The real story was that they lost to a vastly inferior team. Why? Because Wade was significantly better than Nowitzki. I remember going into that, I said Wade was the best player in that series, but the consensus was it was Nowitzki. Since then, they haven't been mentioned in the same breathe.

Paul choked in the Finals against a vastly inferior team? Paul had a team with a top 3 payroll and couldn't get them over the top?

Nowitzki was being guarded by 6-7 Bowen and Finley for large stretches of that series. If he couldn't have dominated them, something would have been wrong. Duncan, playing with plantar fasciitis, destroyed the Mavs in that series. One of the greatest series I've ever seen.

Nothing can diminish Duncan's career at this point.

[DeadlyDynasty]

Nowitzki is overrated in large part because he's white. Let's be honest, every time there's a white guy who's above average, damn near everyone defends him non stop and makes him out to be better than he is.

An average team? Are you insane? They lacked a 2nd (or 1st, to be honest) option for a championship caliber team, but that team had a bloated payroll, good depth and plenty of firepower. The real story was that they lost to a vastly inferior team. Why? Because Wade was significantly better than Nowitzki. I remember going into that, I said Wade was the best player in that series, but the consensus was it was Nowitzki. Since then, they haven't been mentioned in the same breathe.

Paul choked in the Finals against a vastly inferior team? Paul had a team with a top 3 payroll and couldn't get them over the top?

Nowitzki was being guarded by 6-7 Bowen and Finley for large stretches of that series. If he couldn't have dominated them, something would have been wrong. Duncan, playing with plantar fasciitis, destroyed the Mavs in that series. One of the greatest series I've ever seen.

Nothing can diminish Duncan's career at this point.

I didn't realize Isiah Thomas posted here...

[BadOdor]

Nowitzki is overrated in large part because he's white. Let's be honest, every time there's a white guy who's above average, damn near everyone defends him non stop and makes him out to be better than he is.

Oh hi Br, what's up?

Nowitzki was being guarded by 6-7 Bowen and Finley for large stretches of that series. If he couldn't have dominated them, something would have been wrong.

Lol, spur fan will throw bowen under the buss the moment it suits his argument.

Duncan, playing with plantar fasciitis, destroyed the Mavs in that series. One of the greatest series I've ever seen.

Duncan, playing injured, dominating the mighty eric dampier??!!! what a warrior!

Nothing can diminish Duncan's career at this point.

Getting swept by the suns did.

[TD 21]

Oh hi Br, what's up?



Lol, spur fan will throw bowen under the buss the moment it suits his argument.


Duncan, playing injured, dominating the mighty eric dampier??!!! what a warrior!



Getting swept by the suns did.

Give me another reason why this one dimensional, certified choke artist, receives as much respect as he does? I'm not saying he's not a very good player, but virtually everyone slobbers over him. Yet back in the day, Webber, who was a much more talented all around player than Nowitzki, used to get ripped to shreds for being a choker and being soft. Same with Robinson, who was better than them both. Ewing and Garnett are others that used to get ripped relentlessly for choking.

I'm not throwing Bowen under the bus, I'm simply stating the facts: Bowen is 6-7, Nowitzki is 7-0. If he couldn't have dominated him, then something would have been wrong.

Dampier is a solid post defender, genius. So is Diop. He destroyed them.

At least he didn't not win a playoff round for three straight years in his prime...or need a shady "trade" to finally win championships as a lead player and inflate his legacy.

[BadOdor]

Give me another reason why this one dimensional, certified choke artist, receives as much respect as he does? I'm not saying he's not a very good player, but virtually everyone slobbers over him. Yet back in the day, Webber, who was a much more talented all around player than Nowitzki, used to get ripped to shreds for being a choker and being soft. Same with Robinson, who was better than them both. Ewing and Garnett are others that used to get ripped relentlessly for choking.

I'm not throwing Bowen under the bus, I'm simply stating the facts: Bowen is 6-7, Nowitzki is 7-0. If he couldn't have dominated him, then something would have been wrong.

Dampier is a solid post defender, genius. So is Diop. He destroyed them.

At least he didn't not win a playoff round for three straight years in his prime...or need a shady "trade" to finally win championships as a lead player and inflate his legacy.

Did duncan choke against the suns?

Dirk bukkaked duncan twice, almost sweeping him in 2009(preparing him for the actual sweep in 2010).

[TD 21]

No, he didn't. Did you even watch the series?

In '09, Duncan was playing on what he termed as "half a leg". Plus, Ginobili didn't play and the Spurs were obviously completely over matched. You've got the Mavs, who had, as usual, a bloated payroll, against the Spurs, who had Parker, an injured Duncan, a bunch of old, past their prime guys, who couldn't move and a coach playing a foolish rotation for much of the series.

In '06, Duncan was the best player in that series. In '03, he was by far the best player in that series. In '01, same thing.

Way to evade my question and cop out.

[BadOdor]

In '06, Duncan was the best player in that series

[TD 21]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...605070SAS.html

The links to the rest of the games are above the boxscore.

This is what I mean though with people overrating Nowitzki. You're pretending that I'm a homer, but the reality of the situation is Duncan was the best player in that series.

[redzero]

Sons I ain't hating on paul, great player, but let's be honest here: he can put all the stats he wants, at the end of the day he chocked big time in the biggest game he played(lol jannero pargo 14 4th quarter shots) and missed the playoffs in the consecutive season.

I'm not saying hd can' redeem himself, he's good enough player to win a le, possibly even as a number 1 option, but it's not preposterous to say dwill>paul. He owns him head to head and is clutch as well....

1.) Paul did not choke in that game.
2.) The Hornets made the playoffs the next season, even with all the injuries.
3.) Head-to-head is a bull argument, for the millionth time.
4.) Williams does not own Paul in the clutch. If you have stats to back up your argument, please show them.

And I don't know why you're bringing up Deron, because his team lost in five to the Spurs the year before.

[SomeCallMeTim]

Nowitzki is overrated in large part because he's white. Let's be honest, every time there's a white guy who's above average, damn near everyone defends him non stop and makes him out to be better than he is.

Look, I'm not saying this couldn't be possible.

I will, however, point out that white dudes in the NBA could very well suffer from a sort of reverse stereotyping, where they get labelled as "unathletic" or whatever. From comments I read here and elsewhere, I think you can make a pretty good case for it. If it were just Dirk (who gets criminally underrated by a lot of people here, including yourself), then I'd figure it's just good old fashioned Mavhating.

But it's not just Dirk. It's David Lee. Kevin Love. Troy Murphy. All these guys are very valuable players. Lee and Love won't even sniff max contracts and they're much more worth it than guys like Amar'e or Joe Johnson.

So I agree it is likely racism has a lot to do with people making biased judgments of players, just that it goes both ways.

[TD 21]

Look, I'm not saying this couldn't be possible.

I will, however, point out that white dudes in the NBA could very well suffer from a sort of reverse stereotyping, where they get labelled as "unathletic" or whatever. From comments I read here and elsewhere, I think you can make a pretty good case for it. If it were just Dirk (who gets criminally underrated by a lot of people here, including yourself), then I'd figure it's just good old fashioned Mavhating.

But it's not just Dirk. It's David Lee. Kevin Love. Troy Murphy. All these guys are very valuable players. Lee and Love won't even sniff max contracts and they're much more worth it than guys like Amar'e or Joe Johnson.

So I agree it is likely racism has a lot to do with people making biased judgments of players, just that it goes both ways.

I've yet to hear someone come up with another reason for why Nowitzki receives as much praise and as little criticism as he does compared to those other players, many of whom were clearly better than him.

Listen to the talking heads. Every single one of them slobbers over every move that Nash (him the most, because he's small and flashy), Nowitzki and now Gasol, make. Is it just a coincidence?

You're right, sometimes white players are unfairly labeled as well. Babbitt was a perfect example. He was thought to not be athletic, until the combine testing, where he had some of the best scores in areas directly related to or associated with athleticism.

No chance Nowitzki is "criminally underrated". The vast majority of people here slobber over him relentlessly, none more so than Spurs fans themselves. BR is the only other person I consistently see talking about how overrated Nowitzki is.

I can assure you it has nothing to do with Mavs hating. Obviously, as a Spurs fan, I don't like the fans, but I also don't like the Lakers. However, my objectivity supersedes that. I'm not going to sit here and tell you that Bryant isn't one of the top few players in the game and isn't one of the best players of all-time (though I do think he's become overrated historically). When I'm talking about Nowitzki, I'm bringing up legitimate points that I've yet to see someone dispute with facts.

Lee and Love not "sniffing max contracts" has nothing to do with being white and everything to do with them not being considered true lead players or having much of a pedigree. Big time scorers like Granger, Ellis and Martin aren't "sniffing max contracts" either and why? Because they're not looked at as true lead players on good or better teams. Also, they're not perennial All-Stars, they haven't been on teams that have at least advanced past the first round multiple times, etc.

[DJB]

Anything is possible in the NBA, but I have a feeling this team will be good. I read somewhere where the Mavs will have something like 21 million dollars in expiring contracts come the trade dealine, so I suspect that if u see these Mavs struggling in February to stay in the top 3 out West then Mark might use those assets like he did last year and pull off a blockbuster deadline deal.

Did you have that feeling in 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009 and 2010?

[ogait]

I've yet to hear someone come up with another reason for why Nowitzki receives as much praise and as little criticism as he does compared to those other players, many of whom were clearly better than him.

Listen to the talking heads. Every single one of them slobbers over every move that Nash (him the most, because he's small and flashy), Nowitzki and now Gasol, make. Is it just a coincidence?

You're right, sometimes white players are unfairly labeled as well. Babbitt was a perfect example. He was thought to not be athletic, until the combine testing, where he had some of the best scores in areas directly related to or associated with athleticism.

No chance Nowitzki is "criminally underrated". The vast majority of people here slobber over him relentlessly, none more so than Spurs fans themselves. BR is the only other person I consistently see talking about how overrated Nowitzki is.

I can assure you it has nothing to do with Mavs hating. Obviously, as a Spurs fan, I don't like the fans, but I also don't like the Lakers. However, my objectivity supersedes that. I'm not going to sit here and tell you that Bryant isn't one of the top few players in the game and isn't one of the best players of all-time (though I do think he's become overrated historically). When I'm talking about Nowitzki, I'm bringing up legitimate points that I've yet to see someone dispute with facts.

Lee and Love not "sniffing max contracts" has nothing to do with being white and everything to do with them not being considered true lead players or having much of a pedigree. Big time scorers like Granger, Ellis and Martin aren't "sniffing max contracts" either and why? Because they're not looked at as true lead players on good or better teams. Also, they're not perennial All-Stars, they haven't been on teams that have at least advanced past the first round multiple times, etc.

He gets more than his fair share of criticism imo. Your making it sound like your the first to ever call him a choke artist or a 7 foot shooting guard with no post game (not that I agree with either of those but that doesn't matter right now).

Maybe his failures or the failures by the others players you mentioned (Gasol/Nash) are not as scrutinized in comparison to other top players but the expectations associated with those are much more higher and so is the general attention given to them. The fact that there are so few ppl that expect Dirk to win a Championship or to even compete in an NBA final again is already an indication of how not overrated he is.
Also the race argument doesn't make any sense to me.

Either you genuinely think that Nowitsky is not more than an average NBA player or you've been reading way to many Mavs message boards.

[ezau]

Defend your boy gentleman he is a great player ...

But who cares if he hasnt led the league in something?
Duncan may not of led big men in the league in rebounding, blocks or FG% some (most) years but he was STILL better than the guys that were ...

Stats only tell part of the story.
We can agree to disagaree here but truth of the matter is as a PG Dwill has taken teams further ... (college and pro)
He is a better shooter (and dont give me that Lebron efficiency crap, watch teh games)
And better and more versatile defender ...who can guard 2's for short stretches ...Paul cant cuz he is too short ..

Killa bringing in the goods

[ambchang]

Why am I not surprised that, once again, a Laker fan have trouble separating team accomplishments with individual accomplishments?

[Killakobe81]

Why am I not surprised that, once again, a Laker fan have trouble separating team accomplishments with individual accomplishments?

Why do you struggle with the concept ...that in a TEAM sport team acomplishments matter more than anything else?

So you prefer the individual greatness of George gervin over Manu?

BOTH are great players but Iceman is definitely the more accomplished player.
But Manu's contributions to 3 les does not matter more? Seriously?

David in his prime probably had better stats than duncan (great PER and led the league in scoring) ...but is not duncan the greater spur?

I value winning, what a antiquated ('old school mentality as HH37 called it) concept.
I thought winning les was the point ...silly me.

[Killakobe81]

Why am I not surprised that, once again, a Laker fan have trouble separating team accomplishments with individual accomplishments?

Anybody else find this ironic and amusing?
A spur fan, the franchise that is emodies team work and selflessness has a fan that argues for INDIVIDUAL accomplishment over team ...

In that case Kobe Bryant is the greatest player since MJ!!!
81
highest scoring average since
Scoring les
All-star MVP's
dunk contest
most 40 and 50 point games since MJ ...

Yes, that is a MUCH better way to decide this ...