Libertarians call federal worker pay gap 'appalling'

[Galileo]

Libertarians call federal worker pay gap 'appalling'

Recent data from the Bureau of Economic Analysis show that federal government workers get compensation, on average, more than twice as high as private-sector workers. That gap has expanded dramatically over the last decade. Libertarian Party Chair Mark Hinkle released the following statement today:

"The numbers are appalling. In 2009, the average private-sector worker received $61,051 in total compensation, but the average federal government worker received $123,049. There is no excuse for this enormous, and growing, compensation gap.

http://www.lp.org/news/press-release...-gap-appalling

[Galileo]

This is outrageous!

[boutons_deux]

There's no EXCUSE.

It's the corporate/capitalist PLAN going back decades to over private sector employees.

[DarkReign]

There's no EXCUSE.

It's the corporate/capitalist PLAN going back decades to over private sector employees.

I dont usually post in a Galileo thread on principle, but you dont happen to run your own business, do you?

I cant think that you do. I couldnt compensate my employees anything near what Fed workers make in salary or benefits. Not even close.

...and if I were forced to, I'd have to close up shop.

[RandomGuy]

Libertarians call federal worker pay gap 'appalling'

Recent data from the Bureau of Economic Analysis show that federal government workers get compensation, on average, more than twice as high as private-sector workers. That gap has expanded dramatically over the last decade. Libertarian Party Chair Mark Hinkle released the following statement today:

"The numbers are appalling. In 2009, the average private-sector worker received $61,051 in total compensation, but the average federal government worker received $123,049. There is no excuse for this enormous, and growing, compensation gap.

http://www.lp.org/news/press-release...-gap-appalling

This is a good example of how figures can mislead.

This comparison is essentially comparing apples to oranges.

The compensation gap reflects the increasingly high level of skill and education required for most federal jobs and the government contracting out lower-paid jobs to the private sector in recent years.

The "average" US worker includes a LOT of lower paid, less skilled jobs than what is generally required for goverment work.

A better comparison would be to stack up similar occupations to factor this out.

When one factors this in, the "double" factor falls to just 20% more pay than private firms for comparable occupations.

This analysis did not consider differences in experience and education.

Given that many have government jobs because they value the pensions, and tend to stay in those jobs a LOT longer, I would be willing to bet that the 20% overage probably disappears to a great extent when experience is considered.

All in all it is something of a wash by a fair reading of the data.

Of course, if you are convinced that goverment is big, bad and wasteful, being fair is not something you will bother with.

[DarrinS]

This is a good example of how figures can mislead.

This comparison is essentially comparing apples to oranges.

The compensation gap reflects the increasingly high level of skill and education required for most federal jobs and the government contracting out lower-paid jobs to the private sector in recent years.

The "average" US worker includes a LOT of lower paid, less skilled jobs than what is generally required for goverment work.

A better comparison would be to stack up similar occupations to factor this out.

When one factors this in, the "double" factor falls to just 20% more pay than private firms for comparable occupations.



Given that many have government jobs because they value the pensions, and tend to stay in those jobs a LOT longer, I would be willing to bet that the 20% overage probably disappears to a great extent when experience is considered.

All in all it is something of a wash by a fair reading of the data.

Of course, if you are convinced that goverment is big, bad and wasteful, being fair is not something you will bother with.

Where have I read this before?


http://mediamatters.org/blog/201008110022

Why is this a misleading comparison? For starters, as USA Today explained in its article: "Public employee unions say the compensation gap reflects the increasingly high level of skill and education required for most federal jobs and the government contracting out lower-paid jobs to the private sector in recent years." The article further quotes Colleen Kelley, president of the National Treasury Employees Union, as saying, "The data are not useful for a direct public-private pay comparison."

[DarrinS]

"High level of skill and education required for most federal jobs"

[DarrinS]

I guess RandomGuy didn't want to respond to me calling out his plagiarism.

[Jekka]

"High level of skill and education required for most federal jobs"

With the exception of political appointees (I'd contribute to a rant on that if it came up), there is a high level of skill and education required for most federal jobs. With the GS pay system, the levels of promotion are very clearly delineated. If you want to be hired on at GS-09, you HAVE to have that masters degree, or a bachelors with at least a year's full time experience at the bachelor level with promise to excel in a master's level. The application process requires you to note the number of hours per week that you devoted to a specialized skill, so if your numbers don't add up to 40/wk for a year, that experience won't get you the job.

The people that I know who have gotten federal level positions in the last year both have 2 masters degrees apiece. With the current levels of compensation, those positions have gotten incredibly compe ive and are consequently hiring very qualified candidates.

The federal employees that you're laughing at are probably the people at GS-05 or below who are working the crap jobs that wouldn't really garner any better performance in the private sector (customer service at Comcast anyone? Private sector does not guarantee more motivated or knowledgeable employees).

[DarrinS]

With the exception of political appointees (I'd contribute to a rant on that if it came up), there is a high level of skill and education required for most federal jobs. With the GS pay system, the levels of promotion are very clearly delineated. If you want to be hired on at GS-09, you HAVE to have that masters degree, or a bachelors with at least a year's full time experience at the bachelor level with promise to excel in a master's level. The application process requires you to note the number of hours per week that you devoted to a specialized skill, so if your numbers don't add up to 40/wk for a year, that experience won't get you the job.

The people that I know who have gotten federal level positions in the last year both have 2 masters degrees apiece. With the current levels of compensation, those positions have gotten incredibly compe ive and are consequently hiring very qualified candidates.

The federal employees that you're laughing at are probably the people at GS-05 or below who are working the crap jobs that wouldn't really garner any better performance in the private sector (customer service at Comcast anyone? Private sector does not guarantee more motivated or knowledgeable employees).

Private sector doesn't guarantee . That's what makes people work hard.

[boutons_deux]

"Private sector doesn't guarantee . That's what makes people work hard."

The American "social contract" of Work Hard and You Will Be Rewarded in the Land of Opportunity is in shreds.

Now, Americans are intimidated by fire-your-ass-today employers into working harder, longer, for less salary and benefits, while the top management pockets 100 of $Ms, 100s of times the average workers income, and it doesn't matter how the company performs.

And there is no solution. Americans will get ed harder and harder while the oligarchy s them harder and harder, and pays themselves $Ts for doing it.

[CosmicCowboy]

"Private sector doesn't guarantee . That's what makes people work hard."

The American "social contract" of Work Hard and You Will Be Rewarded in the Land of Opportunity is in shreds.

Now, Americans are intimidated by fire-your-ass-today employers into working harder, longer, for less salary and benefits, while the top management pockets 100 of $Ms, 100s of times the average workers income, and it doesn't matter how the company performs.

And there is no solution. Americans will get ed harder and harder while the oligarchy s them harder and harder, and pays themselves $Ts for doing it.

Jeeez already. Get off the computer. The fries are ready.

[Blake]

I cant think that you do. I couldnt compensate my employees anything near what Fed workers make in salary or benefits. Not even close.

What work do your employees do?

[DarkReign]

What work do your employees do?

I am an automotive supplier and (recently) a military contractor.

[clambake]

I am an automotive supplier and (recently) a military contractor.

good luck. i'm pulling for gm and ford........not chrysler. (it's personal)

[DarkReign]

good luck. i'm pulling for gm and ford........not chrysler. (it's personal)

Automotive business will never be what it was ever again, especially since everything is made in northern Mexico. All the big companies, Vehma, ThyssenKrupp, GM, Ford, American Axle, all of them have HUGE, legendary, cutting-edge, never before seen plants in one little town in northern Mexico where basically all design and prototyping is done.

them and this country for allowing it.

So, instead of chasing the cost of some broke-ass, third-world hole where pathetic s are willing to work for pennies a day, I figured the military is where its at.

Its mandatory that all military production and manufacture be done in America by Americans. The as-rolled steel I buy for every project? Yeah, it needs to be certified American made and rolled. Huge fines and even criminal action can be taken against you as a supplier if they find out youre lying or cheating. All staff must be born and bred American, no work visas, no green cards and they spot check you randomly. Moreover, since I'll be supplying indirectly (intially) to the government, my customer has a responsibility to make sure my products are being produced in the states as it is their ass if I am ing around.

Moreover, this country loves war. I dont, but this country does. This country also has lots of allies who buy American weapons platforms by the thousands every year. Hummers, APCs, light assaults, heavy assaults, etc.

UK, Afghanistan, Iraq, the UN, Israel, Australia and Canada are all very heavy customers of the Military Industial Complex.

I am less than a month away from being a certified military contractor, indirectly right to the Pentagon. In less than a year, I have a scheduled visit at the Pentagon so long as my company performs to standard (its not as uncommon as it sounds, but its going to be a big deal for me... , the company down the street has a private jet they send back and forth to the Pentagon every week picking up and dropping off military and civilian staff...that will be the jet I will fly on).

In 5 years time, my company will have gone from struggling automotive company to established, multi-million dollar standard in the military world of arms and armor.

Thats the plan anyway. Next three weeks determines the rest of my life.

[DarkReign]

So just remember when you talk about automotive bailouts, that money went straight to Mexico and Korea.

I can tell you that with authority because GM placed the biggest order it ever had with our sister company after the government bought nearly 70% of it.

Where did those 23 machines (about ~$300k a piece) go? Korea and Mexico, plus install expenses and support.

This country is so ing ed, I stopped caring what happens to taxes and about a year ago. Theyre pissing your money away, intentionally, so you either stand at the bottom with a bucket or you can about not having an umbrella.

[clambake]

remain calm, but stay sharp. one distinct meeting can cement your future.

you've obviously got more hoops to jump through than i did.

[CosmicCowboy]

Automotive business will never be what it was ever again, especially since everything is made in northern Mexico. All the big companies, Vehma, ThyssenKrupp, GM, Ford, American Axle, all of them have HUGE, legendary, cutting-edge, never before seen plants in one little town in northern Mexico where basically all design and prototyping is done.

them and this country for allowing it.

So, instead of chasing the cost of some broke-ass, third-world hole where pathetic s are willing to work for pennies a day, I figured the military is where its at.

Its mandatory that all military production and manufacture be done in America by Americans. The as-rolled steel I buy for every project? Yeah, it needs to be certified American made and rolled. Huge fines and even criminal action can be taken against you as a supplier if they find out youre lying or cheating. All staff must be born and bred American, no work visas, no green cards and they spot check you randomly. Moreover, since I'll be supplying indirectly (intially) to the government, my customer has a responsibility to make sure my products are being produced in the states as it is their ass if I am ing around.

Moreover, this country loves war. I dont, but this country does. This country also has lots of allies who buy American weapons platforms by the thousands every year. Hummers, APCs, light assaults, heavy assaults, etc.

UK, Afghanistan, Iraq, the UN, Israel, Australia and Canada are all very heavy customers of the Military Industial Complex.

I am less than a month away from being a certified military contractor, indirectly right to the Pentagon. In less than a year, I have a scheduled visit at the Pentagon so long as my company performs to standard (its not as uncommon as it sounds, but its going to be a big deal for me... , the company down the street has a private jet they send back and forth to the Pentagon every week picking up and dropping off military and civilian staff...that will be the jet I will fly on).

In 5 years time, my company will have gone from struggling automotive company to established, multi-million dollar standard in the military world of arms and armor.

Thats the plan anyway. Next three weeks determines the rest of my life.

good luck!

[LnGrrrR]

"High level of skill and education required for most federal jobs"

I know the military wasn't included in this, but I know quite a few airmen who could make more on the outside. *shrug*

[LnGrrrR]

Automotive business will never be what it was ever again, especially since everything is made in northern Mexico. All the big companies, Vehma, ThyssenKrupp, GM, Ford, American Axle, all of them have HUGE, legendary, cutting-edge, never before seen plants in one little town in northern Mexico where basically all design and prototyping is done.

them and this country for allowing it.

So, instead of chasing the cost of some broke-ass, third-world hole where pathetic s are willing to work for pennies a day, I figured the military is where its at.

Its mandatory that all military production and manufacture be done in America by Americans. The as-rolled steel I buy for every project? Yeah, it needs to be certified American made and rolled. Huge fines and even criminal action can be taken against you as a supplier if they find out youre lying or cheating. All staff must be born and bred American, no work visas, no green cards and they spot check you randomly. Moreover, since I'll be supplying indirectly (intially) to the government, my customer has a responsibility to make sure my products are being produced in the states as it is their ass if I am ing around.

Moreover, this country loves war. I dont, but this country does. This country also has lots of allies who buy American weapons platforms by the thousands every year. Hummers, APCs, light assaults, heavy assaults, etc.

UK, Afghanistan, Iraq, the UN, Israel, Australia and Canada are all very heavy customers of the Military Industial Complex.

I am less than a month away from being a certified military contractor, indirectly right to the Pentagon. In less than a year, I have a scheduled visit at the Pentagon so long as my company performs to standard (its not as uncommon as it sounds, but its going to be a big deal for me... , the company down the street has a private jet they send back and forth to the Pentagon every week picking up and dropping off military and civilian staff...that will be the jet I will fly on).

In 5 years time, my company will have gone from struggling automotive company to established, multi-million dollar standard in the military world of arms and armor.

Thats the plan anyway. Next three weeks determines the rest of my life.

I can tell you that if you do get a contract, you're pretty much set. Contracted firms have to screw up royally to get replaced in the military, it seems.

[RandomGuy]

Where have I read this before?


http://mediamatters.org/blog/201008110022

My apologies. That paragraph should have had the following annotation:

"Originally Posted by USA today article that the OP was drawn from"
--as the other paragraph quoted from that article did.

The USA today article was where Media Matters got its quote (as your posts' excerpt states).

I probably should have included the URL to the USA today article as well:

http://www.usatoday.com/money/econom...pay10_ST_N.htm

Both bits of editing got missed, as I was in a hurry. Kind of like now.

Gotta jet.

[CosmicCowboy]

I know what you mean about working for the government and all their buy american clauses and 40 pages of reps and certs. I've worked for the various military bases here in San Antonio for years.

They really carry that buy American stuff to extremes. A few years back a local contracting company had the contract to build the American Embassy in Saudi Arabia. It was stucco on concrete construction. A friend of mine got the contract to supply the sand for the concrete/stucco. They literally bagged it in 80# sacks and transported it to the Port of Houston so it could be shipped to Saudi Arabia. We laughed our asses off at what a of a salesman he was to be able to sell sand to Saudi Arabia.

[DarkReign]

remain calm, but stay sharp. one distinct meeting can cement your future.

you've obviously got more hoops to jump through than i did.

good luck!

I can tell you that if you do get a contract, you're pretty much set. Contracted firms have to screw up royally to get replaced in the military, it seems.

Thank you all for the support and advice.

[RandomGuy]

"High level of skill and education required for most federal jobs"

http://www.usajobs.opm.gov/

I did a sample of the jobs open in the Houston, Dallas, and San Antonio areas.

The majority of the sample required a bachelor's or above. Master's and PhD requirements were common within the sample as well.

Of the jobs that didn't require a specific college education, many were for electrical workers or professional trades.

If you like I will prepare a summary, and present the data with % of job openings requiring which degrees and/or specializations.

There were indeed a few lower level clerical jobs that did not require degrees or much skill, but these were few.

Sorry Darrin, but your dogma doesn't seem to match reality, yet again.

Don't take my word for it, the link is right there. See for yourself.