Angelo drossos did great things for the franchise. I am talking about the current front office.
There would be no les in san Antonio without lottery luck.
That's weird. You're the second person in the last hour that recommended that movie to me. I have the book but haven't started it yet. I'll check out the movie. Thanks.
Check our Primer if you get a chance. It was under the radar but a really good movie.
Angelo Drossos was there for the lottery and when David was drafted and when David was convinced to come. Your argument has an element of truth, but only one small element...the lucky ping pong ball element. Every other part of your premise has unconvincing data to support it.
If, in retort, you repeat the data you have already used, then it will not convince even the casual observer.
Last edited by Solid D; 08-13-2010 at 03:42 PM.
Hi all, I'm new to the forum but am a bit confused. This is a Spurs FAN forum, right?? What's the deal with rascal??
Welcome to the board. Yes, this is forum of mostly Spurs fans. If you have any questions, please feel free to ask.
Its not only having the lottery luck to land the first pick, like what the Clippers have done, but to have the lottery luck in the years that two Hall of fame franchise centers were available like what happened with the Spurs.
The Lakers went on to win 3 les during the Robinson-Duncan era because the front office did not go out and get enough talent during those years.
...and that is why I mentioned post-'77 Portland. They passed on one of the greatest basketball players in the history of the game. They passed on a Hall of Fame Franchise player. Portland was lucky enough to draft ahead of the Chicago Bulls and they selected Sam Bowie.
You've lost your argument. Game, set, match.
Damn, good posting Solid D. I am still relatively new around here and I have not seen you post that much. But it seems like you are posting a bit more lately and it is good stuff.
Thanks, DPG21920. I would hardly think of you as relatively new...but I appreciate the thought.
Thats right. We'll be on top of a lot of things, for a long long time.
The Knicks fascination with Isiah Thomas is utterly bewildering. Probably one of the biggest failures of a large market team in professional sports and it appears to be deserved.
The Lakers can get idiots like Ron Artest and Matt Barnes to play, but they certainly are not going to let them coach or evaluate talent. Totally dont get the Knicks.
If the Spurs weren't located in San Antonio everyone would come to the Spurs and none of you would
This is what makes me ashamed to be a Spurs fan. The girls that cry. Gasol got traded to the Lakers...wahhhhhhh. Let it go, man. We got Robinson and Duncan in the lottery which was as lucky as it gets. Should Laker fans cry about that?
HAHAHAHA dude even though RJ didn't come out what we wanted him to be he was averaging like 19 points in Milwaukee we still traded him for Oberto, Bowen, Thomas who combined made like 9 points so we are not ones to talk bro
If city was paramount, then explain the Clippers.
Success starts from the top down. You can have lotto luck and win rings (SA) or you can it up (Cleveland). It all depends on how good your ownership and management is.
You don't have the continued success like the Laker franchise just based on luck, collusion, or any other conspiracy.
The Spurs are a great franchise as well. The problem is they are relativitely new to success - both the ownership & management as well as fans. They can bring in supporting talent but are wary of the risk involved in making the bold move. Thats where LA has the edge. Trading an All-Star center for a 17 year old rookie out of HS before it was vogue takes brass ones. Being the first to clear out cap space and dump players for Shaq set the standard. Willing to take on all the payroll of Pau took advantage of a situation when no other team was offerring that cap relief. Even telling Kobe no to dealing him or dealing Bynum. The Lakers have had gambles pay off. Some have failed like the short term impact of trading Shaq but scared money don't make none.
If SA wants to survive they have to roll the dice. Deal Parker for young talent, even deal Duncan if need be. Don't give all that money to old Manu or to RJ. SA doesn't know when to fold a hand and shuffle the deck - that's why they've got left behind - not collusion or small city. Its the mentality, not the market.
I'm from North Carolina, and any player who refuses to play basketball in the basketball capital of the universe isn't worth spitting on.
The sense of en lement Bryant showed as a high school kid coming into the NBA, and refusing to play in Charlotte, was beyond astounding. Yet he's now made a career of that type of behavior.
So I've hated Bryant's guts ever since. He's proved to be nothing but a jake since Day One.
So many myths taken as facts....
Right - because its been such great NBA basketball in Charlotte.
First off, Charlotte was a mess at the time.
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/201...g-on-kobe.htmlBy 1996, the Hornets were in a state of transition. Center Alonzo Mourning had been traded to Miami for Glen Rice and Matt Geiger. Larry Johnson was on the verge of being traded to the New York Knicks for Anthony Mason.
The team was still selling out every home game – the streak would eventually reach 364 games before ending in November 1997 – but the business of professional basketball had changed the dynamic.
Allan Bristow had resigned as coach after the team went 41-41 and missed the NBA playoffs in the 1995-96 season. Former Boston Celtics great Dave Cowens was hired.
The Hornets had one of the shortest rosters in the NBA after Mourning left, making it imperative they find a big man. With the 13th and 16th picks in the first round, the plan was to find a big man, then draft another guard.
"To think we were taking Kobe …" Bass says. "We had a small team and we were looking for size."
Among the big men the Hornets considered were Wright State's Vitaly Potapenko, Louisville's Samaki Walker and Memphis' Lorenzen Wright. Charlotte native Todd Fuller, a center at N.C. State, figured to be gone before the Hornets would draft.
With the 16th pick, the Hornets already had their eye on a guard – Santa Clara's Steve Nash, who had worked out with the team shortly before the draft. The Hornets had invited Bryant for a workout, but he cancelled the visit. The team had scouted Bryant twice but wanted a private workout to get a better feel for his potential.
"He wouldn't work out with us and that bothered us," Bass said. "We couldn't meet him. His agent was trying to aim him to the Lakers and they threatened us."
The Hornets got the message that if they drafted Bryant, he wouldn't play in Charlotte.
They weren't the only team to be warned off taking Bryant for their own.
The New Jersey Nets, coached by John Calipari, considered Bryant with the eighth pick but chose Villanova's Kerry Kittles after hearing a similar message.
But it still says NJ was warned away - not true either. At least not from Kobe.
http://dimemag.com/2010/02/jerry-wes...drafting-kobe/First West had to take the huge gamble of trading veteran center Vlade Divac to the Charlotte Hornets for their thirteenth pick in the draft. Then he learned that John Calipari, the coach of the New Jersey Nets, planned to take [Kobe] Bryant with the eighth pick before the Lakers could snare him at thirteen.
“Jerry wanted Kobe, so he basically called up and talked Cal out of drafting Kobe,” explained Hal Wiseel, who was with the Nets at the time. West encouraged the Bryant family to talk to Calipari and explain that their son really wanted to play for the Lakers. “He knew if we didn’t take him at eight, he’d drop to Charlotte, and he could make the deal with Charlotte,” Wissel recalled. “Cal was young in the league and, hey, it’s Jerry West on the phone.”
http://www.northjersey.com/columnist...ost_a_Net.htmlThe night before the draft, Calipari and Nash dined with Kobe’s parents, Joe and Pam. Joe had played in the NBA and in Italy. Mom and Dad told the Nets they were all for their son living in Jersey, a short drive from their suburban Philly home.
A practical joke for so long, the Nets were planning for one of the biggest nights in franchise history. The draft was being held in the Meadowlands, and on their own turf the Nets were going to stage a pep rally.
Calipari would introduce his first blue-chip recruit, a kid who would’ve never picked Cal’s Massachusetts program over the Blue Devils of Duke.
And then the phone rang. Out of nowhere, Bryant’s agent, Arn Tellem, warned the Nets that his client would play in Italy if the franchise dared to draft him.
Nash suspected it was a bluff. He figured Tellem had conspired with sneaker maven Sonny Vaccaro to steer Bryant to a larger, sexier market. He figured that Lakers GM Jerry West, a huge Bryant fan, had a prearranged deal with a team sitting behind the Nets in the draft pecking order.
Kobe ended up in LA but that's because of West and Kobe's agent. Kobe would have been fine playing with the Nets. Again - it was about a franchise/management believing in what they felt and going for it. Ballsy move, took some pull and influence but that's the way the game is played. Relationships are part of most NBA trades.
Last edited by 2Cleva; 08-13-2010 at 11:25 PM.
To act like Kobe played no part in forcing his way to LA is silly.
And while I'm at - West wasn't part of the Gasol trade. I won't even post what was said at the time - I'll post what the owner said well after the deal when he was regretting it.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slu...leygasol060308“Is anybody jumping on Popovich in San Antonio because he traded that center to Houston for virtually nothing?” Heisley wondered.
Heisley was talking about Luis Scola, the forward, whom had been a long-ago draft pick of the Spurs. Only problem was, Scola never played a minute for the four-time champions. Gasol was the Grizzlies’ franchise player, and it was Spurs coach Gregg Popovich saying on the record what most of his peers had only the guts to say without attribution: What in the world was Memphis management thinking on the Gasol trade?
When much of the league was determined to make a serious bid for the 7-footer, how could Memphis settle so long before the February trade deadline for such a paltry offer out of the Lakers?
For the first time, even Heisley wondered whether his general manager, Chris Wallace, blew it by caving so soon to the Lakers.
“I don’t know if I got the most value,” Heisley confessed. “Maybe our people should’ve shopped (Gasol) more and maybe we would’ve gotten more, done a better deal. Maybe Chris did call every team in the league. I don’t think he did, but maybe he should’ve…”
Around the league, nothing will change this belief: Whatever the reasoning, this was one of the NBA’s worst trades in years. Most of all, rival executives wonder why they never had a chance to submit a best offer. For Gasol, the 7-footer who transformed the Lakers in the absence of Andrew Bynum, the Grizzlies were willing to take back the expiring contract of Kwame Brown, rookie point guard Javaris Crittenton, two future No. 1 picks and the draft rights to Gasol’s brother, Marc.
Crittenton is nothing special, and those draft picks in 2008 and 2010 will be near, if not at the end of, the first round. Gasol had demanded a trade out of Memphis, had been moping around, giving less than his best. Yes, he had to go, but you don’t trade your franchise player without getting back a minimum of a sure-thing young star and/or two solid young starters. For Memphis, salary-cap space will probably turn out to be money that’ll never make it back into the roster.
The one-sided nature of the trade inspired a lot of people to believe that retired Memphis GM, Jerry West, a Lakers’ legend, played a part in facilitating the deal. West was instrumental recruiting Wallace as his replacement in Memphis and still holds a close relationship with Heisley. His history in Los Angeles, especially his bond with Lakers GM Mitch Kupchak and star Kobe Bryant, made even the fair-minded cynical about the scenario.
Several sources close to the process insist West played no part, and Heisley swears, “Jerry didn’t know about the trade until after it was done.”
Still, it hasn’t stopped a rampant anger around the league that this wasn’t so much of a trade, as much as it was the word that Bryant himself used: a “donation.” Privately, the Lakers were thrilled that they were able to keep negotiations with the Grizzlies quiet because Los Angeles officials were blown away that they could get Gasol for so little.
One source with knowledge of the process said the Bulls had made the most credible offer. For Gasol and Memphis’ Hakim Warrick, the Bulls were willing to part with Andres Nocioni, Tyrus Thomas, Joakim Noah, Thabo Sefolosha, possibly Adrian Griffin and draft picks.
Heisley didn’t offer up those names, but insisted, “Chicago wouldn’t offer us any of their good, core players,” he said. “Our people told me that we weren’t able to get equal trade value for Gasol and that we needed to do a deal that would give us cap space and draft picks. It was no secret in the league that we were considering offers for him, but the Lakers were the one team that stepped up.”
Heisley has been losing money in Memphis, a small market where the franchise has come to flounder. He tried to sell the team, but no one has reached his asking price. Around the league there are those who believe that Wallace was forced to turn the Gasol trade into a salary dump, and there are league officials, including a close friend, who believe, “There is no way that Chris ever would’ve made that trade on his own.”
“I have no buyer’s remorse,” Heisley said. “Listen, I can’t tell you how many people would tell me, wherever I went in Memphis, ‘Get rid of Gasol. …Trade Gasol.’ And then some of the same people are booing us because we traded him. But I don’t mind that. I’m a big boy. I can take it.”
To act like he staged a coup is just as foolish. He would have went to NJ. Charlotte didn't even want him. Yes, he let his agent get him to a bigger market for commercial purposes but the only other team looking for a guard got conned out of it by the greatest GM of all-time.
Multiple layers of complexity but it all goes back to management/ownership ready to win, regardless of city. The Lakers have it. The Spurs have it - they just don't have enough experience to get back to the mountain after falling off. They keep putting fingers in the dike instead of rebuilding the whole thing.
Look at Kobe's actions now, they match up with the actions of back then. And "now" is supposedly when he is more mature.
Explain Baron Davis leaving Golden State for the Clippers then....
LA has a HUGE advantage with Hollywood when it comes to marketing $$$ players can make, and whether you want to believe it or not, players DO look at how much TOTAL $$$ they can make in a city, rather than just from their basketball contract.
It's why a guy like Jason Kidd turns down the chance to play with the NBA Champs in 2003 because he and his wife can't make the kinda $$$ they were making with NYC in their backyard.
How did I lose the argument? My argument was the Clippers did not draft number 1 at a time there was a clear cut franchise player like Robinson or Duncan on the board.
The spurs championships are a direct result of that lottery luck and not so much to a superior front office. The front office is very conservative and almost fearful to pull the trigger on trades to upgrade the team. They also dont do enough to create and use cap space to add quality players. They would rather plug the holes with role player type of talent then take any chances with players like Sprewell, Barkley or R Wallace, all who could have given the spurs that extra spark to get past the Lakers.
Someone mentioned Kerr, Muhammad and Rasho as top trade/free agent moves for the franchise. what a joke. Kerr hit a few shots in a playoff game. Such a great aquisition that he was off the team the next year and did nothing else. Muhammad and Rasho, they won despite those guys. They were so good they let both of them go while they still had a hole at center.
Last edited by rascal; 08-14-2010 at 10:27 PM.
What marketing money has Davis made because he plays for the Clippers that he couldn't make elsewhere? What does Hollywood have to do with the NBA and Davis making more money because Hollywood is in LA?
Davis is not the type of player that makes that much difference to turn the team into a contender anyways.
Last edited by rascal; 08-14-2010 at 10:28 PM.
Fakers are at the top because they pull of unbalanced trades (Gasol) and get big name FAs for cheap (Artest). Its funny that the failed ring chasers are never mentioned by faker fans (Payton, Malone). If anyone argues that LA does not have the edge in attracting FA or pulling of unbalanced trades then that person is either trolling or a moron. No need argue with such people. A fact is a fact.
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