Food for thought:
True libertarian would concede that a corporation's rights could not supercede the rights of a single individual.
Liberty is the bottom line.
True republican would crush the individual's liberty in the name of profit at every turn. just like a TRUE AUTHORITARIAN. "Turn over your resources or we will take your land little man..."
Even though the lip service is there, Liberty is not the benchmark with repubs...$$$ is. unless your talking about corporate liberty, that is...which in a republican philosophy outweighs the liberty of every man woman and child in this nation.
you guys need to understand what a libertarian school of thought actually is. Ill give you a hint...if you truly uphold cons utional ideals, the rights of citizens would quickly impede the corporate capitalist machine. Is it authoritarian to turn back capitalist corporations from maxing out profits when their respective business practices impede the rights of the individual? or just upholding the cons ution?
depends on the party you belong to I suppose...
and if you want to know why repubs have embraced big govt in the last two decades, it is because they have realized that the possibilities are endless when you get behind the wheel of big govt. they can realize their wildest dreams when they can wield such power as the federal govt can provide...
Who says otherwise?
Not when your liberty takes away from others.
Not true. Many of today's republicans are simply corrupted by the political process. Republicans, as the name implies, and those who are true to it, believe in a small central, and the 50 individual republics, each self regulating. Not a central democracy, in it's authoritarian glory like the democrats are in DC. That's why at the federal level, they keep trying to deregulate, so the states can do their own thing, unhampered by authoritarianism.
Corporate liberty and individual liberty is not mutually exclusive. It's obvious you are indoctrinated to believing so.
Libertarian thought is very wide and diverse, with the only commonality being anti-authoritarian.
You are flat our wrong. How can anyone with thoughts of liberty impede capitalism?
Yes. I have stated early on, soon after you started posting here, you are not a libertarian. You are an authoritarian.
And you most certainly are a control freak, but apparently, lie to yourself.
You ever read the libertarian party platform They have no problems with corporations. Why do you?
2.2 Environment
We support a clean and healthy environment and sensible use of our natural resources. Private landowners and conservation groups have a vested interest in maintaining natural resources. Pollution and misuse of resources cause damage to our ecosystem. Governments, unlike private businesses, are unaccountable for such damage done to our environment and have a terrible track record when it comes to environmental protection. Protecting the environment requires a clear definition and enforcement of individual rights in resources like land, water, air, and wildlife. Free markets and property rights stimulate the technological innovations and behavioral changes required to protect our environment and ecosystems. We realize that our planet's climate is constantly changing, but environmental advocates and social pressure are the most effective means of changing public behavior.
2.3 Energy and Resources
While energy is needed to fuel a modern society, government should not be subsidizing any particular form of energy. We oppose all government control of energy pricing, allocation, and production.
2.4 Government Finance and Spending
All persons are en led to keep the fruits of their labor. We call for the repeal of the income tax, the abolishment of the Internal Revenue Service and all federal programs and services not required under the U.S. Cons ution. We oppose any legal requirements forcing employers to serve as tax collectors. Government should not incur debt, which burdens future generations without their consent. We support the passage of a "Balanced Budget Amendment" to the U.S. Cons ution, provided that the budget is balanced exclusively by cutting expenditures, and not by raising taxes.
2.5 Money and Financial Markets
We favor free-market banking, with unrestricted compe ion among banks and depository
ins utions of all types. Individuals engaged in voluntary exchange should be free to use as money
any mutually agreeable commodity or item. We support a halt to inflationary monetary policies and
uncons utional legal tender laws.
2.6 Monopolies and Corporations
We defend the right of individuals to form corporations, cooperatives and other types of companies based on voluntary association. We seek to divest government of all functions that can be provided by non-governmental organizations or private individuals. We oppose government subsidies to business, labor, or any other special interest. Industries should be governed by free markets.
2.7 Labor Markets
We support repeal of all laws which impede the ability of any person to find employment. We oppose government-fostered forced retirement. We support the right of free persons to associate or not associate in labor unions, and an employer should have the right to recognize or refuse to recognize a union. We oppose government interference in bargaining, such as compulsory arbitration or imposing an obligation to bargain.
they do in fact have problems with corporations that commandeer big govt to dominate markets.
they also believe in private enforecement of legislative schemes, in a court of law, and respective of the rights of all citizens.
WC, the reason we dont have alternatives is that govt has indeed favored certain market players/offerings, as a result of extensive lobbying and pervasive campaign funding corruption. This goes against the libertarian views on monolopies and corporations as you have just stated them.
Corporations are not inherently evil, but when they are backed by big government they become intolerable. When they infringe on the rights of the populous they become intolerable.We oppose government subsidies to business, labor, or any other special interest.
Why do you oppose the individual's right to stand up against corporations when his livelihood/property/health/way of life is affected?
Why do you oppose the pursuit of liberty?
so it the insane regulatory bodies that we should do away with, but the aims of the libertarian party would still provide regulation, just through more efficient methods. clear legislative codes, tying the hands of courts to restore those that have been damaged when corporations do harm. and IT IS PRECISELY HERE THAT THE FREE MARKET ECONOMY WILL REWARD THOSE BUSINESSES THAT CAN PROVIDE PRODUCTS AND SERVICES WITHOUT PUTTING THE PUBLIC'S WELFARE AT RISK!Protecting the environment requires a clear definition and enforcement of individual rights in resources like land, water, air, and wildlife.
The rights of the individual inherently came first, since all corps are created by individuals. These rights dont take away from others/corps, they simply keep them at bay when corps overreach into citizens back yards.
two points of fail here:
1. we all know that corruption is pervasive in govt, not simply in the dem party. the finger pointing is pointless in this day and age.
2. the deregulation takes place as part of a rigged game..it is simply an extension of the very same corruption that you admit to in your response. the thieves are already in our house, the deregulation just allows them to collect our belongings completely unfettered. to claim otherwise is to misstate the truth.
when we talk about environmental issues, it is the rights of individuals and communities that suffer. corporations can operate even in the filthiest of environments.
you call on authoritarian philosophies regulary. see post#5.
this response shows that indeed you have been indoctrinated into republican school of thought over the years. the answer is simple and obvious, and yet you will never hear it from a republican
the cons utionalist doesnt impede capitalism. the rights given in the cons ution, to each individual, can however. you cant take those inalienable rights in the name of profit/capitalism, just as communist govts have no right to take the property of their own citizens in the name of the greater good.
and if the rights of every citizen are given equal value, as they should be, the corporation who would cut corners and trespass in the yard of neighbors in order to maximize profits would be forced to stop in their tracks...by the cons ution itself.
yes indeed, and the AUTHORITY IS THE CONSITUTION. WHEN THE CAPITALIST CORPS START ING WITH THE PROPERTY RIGHTS/HEALTH/FAMILY OF THE INDVDUAL, THEY CAN AND MUST BE REBUKED. And someone like yourself would use an authoritarian view to take their property/health/family's health in the name of capitalism, in the nname of the greater good ($$$ and economic prosperity), not unlike communist china, with absolutely no legal authority other than republican custom.
Its not controlling if it has cons utional precedent. inalienable rights, WC.
Better than having repugs lie to me, I suppose.
No .
We need to address the government abuse. Not act as if it's the people vs. corporations.
Duh... So make the correct argument instead of making a people or corporation argument.
Do you have an example I would disagree with? Most are illegal, except when a corporation greases officials hands yo use eminent domain.
It's your blanket statement that offends my intelligence.
It is you who does. When your pursuit of liberty believes in harming corporations in general, I say you.
and it is when corporations are shielded from liability for infringing on the rights of the individual citizen, by big govt, govt corruption, and a tendency towards adherence to capitalism rather than cons utionalism that you must say " me."
I am not for them trampling on any one's rights. So few do. You act is if it's right to punish all for what a few do.
You seem to take everything as an all or nothing scenario. That is flat out wrong to do.
fify, and the result is utter fail. but it shows your heart.
My sentiment works both ways. I equally hate people lake you who want to harm corporation, as I hate corporations that harm people.
this whole topic arose as a discussion of the libertarians being incapable of holding environmentally responsible philosophies. I guess libertarians get lumped in with repubs too often.
My responses here are aimed at corps who would disenfranchise citizens from their property rights. Those corps that could operate without infringement would be rewarded, tose that operated at an unfair profit...by infringing on the rights of others to live unfettered would suffer greatly.
free market genius.
its that simple.
corps are only immune from environmental liability when the commandeer govt and the judicial process. that should tell you a great deal about the wide open market you advocate for.
WC you are advocating more corruption, where corps do not have to bow to the rights of the individual in their practices, you are advocating for republican authoritarianism, plain and simple.
if this is true, then we can agree completely. but I would love to see every corporation who makes it a common practice to trample the rights of our citizens dismantled if they cannot discontinue the practice.
Then say so up front instead of generalizing.
Bull , and you cannot prove yourself right on that.
Sue them.
exactly what libertarians believe
"Sue them"
Who pays the plaintiffs' $Ms in litigation costs to go against the corps' armies of $M lawyers? ACLU? Are you an ACLU contributor?
In America, you get only the "justice" that you can afford. And corps can afford to game the "justice" system and beat down citizen plaintiffs, just ask Exxon Valdez victims, now BP victims, Bhopal victims, etc, etc, etc.
Last edited by boutons_deux; 08-15-2010 at 11:47 AM.
Corporations are the product of a state sanctioning their legal rights.
You make this country free, you have better results.
Also, corporations can still influence the govt and have agencies do their bidding against their compe ors under the guise of "regulation".
"make this country free"
what freedoms are you or anybody else missing?
Definately economic freedom, or the freedom to do AC work, plumbing, etc.
The freedom to exempt myself from paying school taxes, etc.
What's taking away your freedom from manual labor?
Are illegals getting a/c, plumbing licenses, paying professional insurance, and undercutting you?
Why not heed BecKKKs' dog whistles and become a "sovereign citizen", there are about 500K now, and declare yourself a law unto yourself, freedom from all laws and taxes?
Plumbing, Home inspection etc all are very protected professions. Nm.. i'm arguing with a moron.
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