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The MVP started being a ridiculous award once the media got sick of giving it to Jordan even though he was always the best player between about '88 and '98. Then Duncan got robbed in 1999, Shaq in 2001, and Kobe in 2006 (4th place? What the ?).
Not to mention that Kobe's prime ended years ago.
The MVP started being a ridiculous award once the media got sick of giving it to Jordan even though he was always the best player between about '88 and '98. Then Duncan got robbed in 1999, Shaq in 2001, and Kobe in 2006 (4th place? What the ?).
Kobe has had incredible supporting casts when his teams have won les.
the only True legends that have accomplished this feat are guys like Jordan and Duncan who have led otherwise 'good' teams to les, while leading the team in most statistical categories, Duncan could have been DPOY in 2003 as well...
This is true and that is why duncan is way better than kobe.
Duncan sure lead the 2004 Olympic team to glory.
That is why Kobe is way better than Duncan.
Back on topic, please..
Kobe isn't involved in this discussion, he has never achieved this feat..
James is about to start getting the Jordan treatment and he would have even had he remained a Cav. Voters are going to realize "wait a second, he's only 26 (by next year's voting), already has 2 and will likely compete for these for the better part of the next decade. That means he could blow away Abdul-Jabbar and Jordan" and all of a sudden you're going to start to see Howard get his token one, Durant should get at least one, Wade will probably get one, Paul or Anthony if they're on good enough teams have a shot to get one, and don't be surprised if Bryant is handed one more.
The amazing thing about the MVP award is Duncan, O'Neal and Bryant, the three best players of their generation, have just one more combined than Nash and Nowitzki. Yes, I know, it's not a career achievement award and is based on play for a single season, but come on. That stat is nothing short of ridiculous.
Nash winning back to back MVPs is one of the biggest travesties in all of sports.
So that means Kobe has 0 MVP awards. Okay
And it kills Lakers fans that he hasn't. They know he will never be Jordan no matter the rings, he just simply hasn't accomplished nearly what Jordan has.
He doesn't need to.
What I do know is that Kobe is sitting on 25,790 career points for # 12 on the NBA all time list. After this season he will leap frog basically 6 spots to sit comfortably in the 6th spot behind Shaq ( no pun intended). He will pass up players 6-11:
1. Kareem Abdul Jabbar - 38, 387 pts
2. Karl Malone - 36, 928 pts
3. Michael Jordan -, 292 pts
4. Wilt Chamberlain - 31, 419 pts
5. Shaq Oneal - 28, 255 pts
6. Moses Malone - 27, 409 pts (This will Kobe’s spot after this season)
7. Elvin Hayes - 27,313 pts
8. Hakeem Olajuwon -26, 946 pts
9. Oscar Robertson - 26,710 pts
10. Dominique Wilkens - 26,668 pts
11. John Havlicek - 26, 395 pts
12. The Black Mamba - 25,790 pts
So let me take you on math journey since. Over his career Kobe averages 1842 pts/yr. The last 5 seasons though ( which is more relevant) he’s avg 2351 pts/yr including with injuries. Last year was an off season injury plagued season for Kobe in which he scored only 1970 pts, still better than his career avg but below the last 5 seasons mark. So I estimate that next year a healthy Kobe will avg about 2000-2200 pts in order to sacrifice his game for the team. Let’s take the low end and say 2000 pts that comfortable put him at 27,790 pts and his 6th place all-time. In 2012 he will pass Shaq up ( while Shaq is still playing for 5th all time). But let’s say factoring age , Bynum’s emergence , more ball movement , and desire to save himself for the play-offs his numbers dip in each succeeding year. let’s say it tapers off to about 1800 a season worst case scenario ( and at age 32) if Kobe plays just 7 more seasons he will be in sole possession of 1st place on the all time scoring list with with 38,390 pts . Or he can play 8 more seasons and and 1600/yr and he still beats the all-time mark by 200 pts with 38,590 pts
At any rate the path way to NBA immortality is paved for Kobe. He will top Kareem and MJ for 8 les 3 more in his cards and will top Kareem in points solidifying his claim as the NBA’s greatest. These are hallowed records like baseball’s home run and for Kobe to be on the list as an active player and still dominating is the true measuring stick. See MVP awards are fine but they’re not symbolic of the effort. They’re more cosmetics than anything. Give me the that doesn’t need make-up. les, scoring records, peer acknowledgment means more than anything.
Look at the list above again and look at the company Kobe is keeping and surpassing at the same time. Duncan, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Steve Nash, Dirk Nowtski are no where near this list. I will let you haters marinate on that for minute.
TBH, I didn't read any of that..
Reason #1- It's a post from you, and I usually try to avoid posts from you..
Reason #2- It has nothing to do with this thread..
This isn't a discussion about Kobe and his random achievements, it's a discussion about the rarity and dominance involved when it comes to achieving this feat..there's a Kobe thread sticky-ed at the top of the forum for Kobe discussion..
Off the top before looking into stats and achievements, where would you have ranked Willis Reed?
After realizing he has done this, would that change where you ranked him?
Do you think he belongs in the discussion of the elite of the elite HOFers?
Regular season points are relatively irrelevant. Obviously, they matter to a point. But no knowledgeable basketball fan would weigh them heavily in the all-time greats argument. If they did, Hayes, Wilkins and Havlicek would figure much more prominently into the discussion than they do and Russell and to a lesser extent, Johnson and Duncan, wouldn't figure as prominently into the discussion as they do.
Besides, Bryant's total regular season points, while a testament to his superb scoring ability, durability and longevity, are also a testament to him being a selfish, stats obsessed gunner, who has fired away more relentlessly than almost any player in the history of the game. If Duncan did that, he'd have a lot more points too.
you know quite well what it's about for someone that was honest and didn't read it...I know dude I'm a mutha er always raining on your little parade and busting your ass with truth...man what you gonna do about this Koolaid dropping dimes and exposing your weak ass arguements...
nothing I guess.
- I've never seen Willis Reed play, so I can't comment without looking into stats and achievements..
- Yes, it would IMO..it's an incredible feat IMO..
- No..I said that this could be a requirement being on this level, I never said just doing this alone would put you on the level..while Reed did it, which elevates him IMO, he obviously doesn't have the rest of the accolades/stats/impact to fit in..
I can't answer this question for here, but I can from a past experience. On another site I was once asked for my top-10 centers of all-time. Being that I've only been watching basketball for 20 years, I did a lot of statistical research before providing my rankings.
Entering, I hadn't really considered Willis Reed as one I'd truly consider. I'd always thought his inclusion in the Top-50 of All-Time list compiled for the NBA's 50th anniversary a bit of a puzzler. I'd heard of his name and knew he was a very good player, but I figured it to be east coast bias. Upon examining the MVP list, I saw that he'd won one. I was surprised, so I poked around a bit more and was shocked to see he'd won it the same year of his famous Finals MVP. Not only that, but that same season he won All-Star game MVP.
Having never seen him, it's very difficult to not favor other players such as Wilt/Russell based on legend or the players of today that I've seen, but to win those definitely changed my opinion of him as a player, one from a very good, likely overrated from playing in NY (think Namath) to one of actual greatness, if only briefly, but deserving of these types of mentions.
Fact he did it against a renaissance season for Wilt makes it all the more impressive.
How many have won all available MVPs in the same season?
You're a laughing riot trying to imply you and fellow Spur fans are knowledgeable. Duncan is no where close to Kobe's skill level and athleticism. He could never score with Kobe...Kobe would and has ted on Duncan's accomplishments. Duncan compared to Kobe will be relegated to a footnote in history. No outside of San Antonio even considers Duncan in Kobe's league, les or not.
Thank goodness e Lee did his do entary while Kobe was putting the Spurs away. That is an immortal piece of work. Classic and Timeless, and I'm grateful for it and I want to shed a tear like Fisher after the Finals game 3. Because it symbolizes the death of the Spurs and it went out to basketball fans around the world.
- This thread isn't about Kobe, I didn't mention him at all in my OP, so I have no idea why you brought him up..
- Defending a le is definitely a nice thing to have on the resume, but les are won by teams, not individuals..winning regular season MVP AND Finals MVP means you dominated the entire year of basketball, and that you were unquestionably the best player in the league for the entire year..it combines both individual accolades AND winning, not just winning, which is more team-oriented..
Defending your le shows dominance from a TEAM..
Winning the 2 biggest individual awards in the same season, combining individual game + winning, is the most dominance you can have IMO..
Show me a link that MVPs are decided by like/dislike..
Combination of unfamiliarity and insecurity. First, note that very few posting Laker fans are mentioning/celebrating the inclusions of Laker greats Magic and Kareem on your initial list. Seems like many of the Laker fans posting more than likely weren't old enough to really watch/experience their greatness. So as not to go unread, their insecurity finds them drudging up the one thing they do know/celebrate. The thread just can't be without it evolving into a Kobe glorification thread.
This is no slight to Kobe on my part. His greatness is understood, and I'd say it is such to the extent that conversations not about Kobe, that his greatness needn't be stated.
All that said, the intent of the thread was to compare this accomplishment against the history of NBA accomplishments/careers. I do think the Kobe discussions are fair, they do seem a bit overstated, however. Maybe it's just the posters making the arguments?
"We haven't met, have we?"
Signed,
Jerry West's 1969 Finals MVP
Since you are trying to compare the greatness of these guys to Kobe. And since you obviously called out Laker fans to make a case for Kobe being on the level of these guys, I'll give you a much greater feat. Winning the NBA MVP is something plenty of players have done. Winning the finals MVP and season MVP in one season puts you in a rare category. As you have pointed out, only 9 players have done so, and those 9 players are most likely in everyone's top 10 all time greats. Is there a greater category that could elevate a player above any of the players that you just mentioned... let's see.
Due to the fact that the regular season MVP award is mostly a popularity contest, and I'm sure most people would agree, I personally place the finals MVP award above it because you are playing for all the marbles. I'd bet every player in history that owns a regular season MVP award and don't own a finals MVP award would trade their regular season MVP for a finals MVP. Either way, no matter how you look at it, it's a great feat, and Kobe is yet to accomplish this. Is this a knock on him, no, or maybe some may think it is, but as I said earlier, there is a feat that is much greater than winning finals and regular season MVP's in one season. HarlemHo, I know by know you are wondering what it is. I purposely drug this out since you went out of your way to call out Lakers fans on this issue. Have you figured it out? Probably not, but I'm sure you thought you had finally figured out a way to reduce Kobe and shut Lakers fans up in the process. But in reality, you just provided another opportunity to prove how great Kobe has become.How about that, even in what you think will be your most finest hour, I've found a way to turn it into an advantage.
Winning those individual awards are nice, but defending your crown is the greatest achievement in all of sports. It proves that what you did the season before wasn't luck, and also proves that you can handle the pressure of having the bulls eye on your back. Kobe has defended his crown three times. Shaq did it twice, MJ did it four times, Hakeem did it once, Magic did it once, Zeke did it once, Bird and Duncan never did it. Kareem did it once, Wilt never did it, Russell did it nine times. Mikan did it three times.
So, if you really want to measure greatness, I think we all can agree that there is nothing more greater than winning a le, and I think there is nothing more greater than defending that le... something Duncan, Bird, and Wilt have never done. But if you really want to separate yourself from the best, you defend that le multiple times. And as of right now, only Kobe, Shaq, MJ, Russell and Mikan have done it. Check mate.
I think it's safe to call those les luck. Talk about inconsistency...
But I also think this is worth sharing Luva you should start a thread that asks how many times have Kobe personally served up Duncan and show the video. Man Spurs fans won't appreciate this but this video is just sick. I felt kinda sorry for Timmy the only time I've seen facials this personal has been ing on her face when done. Man I stopped counting Kobe was doing this so ing bad... ...
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