OH NOES.....Did Obamessiah say what I think he said.

[FromWayDowntown]

Wild Cobra:

I believe of you only what your actions and words say I should. It's interesting to me that you feel quite comfortable generalizing about others, but dislike having your own words used to characterize you.

I also find it interesting that you're willing to suggest that I'm the one who suffers from prejudice and that I'm refusing to think outside of the box when you believe that more people think as you do than think as I do. I don't feel trapped by my belief in others and my refusal to read limitations into skin color. I'm merely wondering what drives your views and believe that your views are driven primarily by unfounded prejudices that can be neatly disguised behind political rhetoric.

I'm here to discuss whatever you want; I can only discern your thoughts from what you post and I try to give you every opportunity to tell me that I'm wrong by explaining in some persuasive way why I'm wrong -- not just that you think I'm wrong. I would expect the same of anyone else taking me to task for anything that I write. I'll never open my mind to the possibility that viewing people with prejudices is a good thing, so perhaps your last sentence is correct with respect to this issue; trust me, I'm not going to spend a lot of time thinking about how you feel on this particular issue and I'll happily discuss any other topic with you that arises on this forum, whether I agree with you or not.

[Wild Cobra]

Bump...

You can blame Affirmative Action (a racist policy) for the fact that black surgeons skills are questioned.

Exactly. Why is that so hard for people to comprehend?

[clambake]

Well, they have a college education and laugh at people like you who don't know the proper meaning of words.

and they sit around watching you post in spurstalk? that must sting.

[Wild Cobra]

Here is what started it on 8/18/08, post #59:

I agree. Whenever I see Blacks in positions of authority, I am concerned that they were chosen because they were Black rather than qualified.

I think we all do. Affirmative action has done more harm to the black community than racism in some ways. Because of quotas, we cannot know if a person made certain position or jobs by merit, or by quotas.

Would you go to a black surgeon for an operation if he was a product of affirmative action? Of course this information isn't readily available, so most smart people avoid black surgeons. I wonder what type of impact this has on jobs for black. It is a form of prejudice, but it isn't racism.

[clambake]

you're a product of affirmative action. only white.

[Mr. Peabody]

I knew I should have posted that comment in blue. I didn't think it was necessary(after all, who could be simple-minded enough to think I was being serious?), but Pixel called it.

[Johnson]

or now you could be backpeddling.... who knows?

[CubanMustGo]

Bump...


Exactly. Why is that so hard for people to comprehend?

Tell me you didn't just bump a thread (a pretty asinine one at that) that was two years old to make this 'point.'

[Galileo]

9 out of 10 past Presidents would agree - Thomas is weak...

Thomas is the only Supreme Court justice smart enough to understand the commerce clause; that manufacturing and agriculture are not commerce.

The Founding Fathers understood this. John Marshall understood this.

[LnGrrrR]

This is a badly-timed gaffe by Obama -- anyone who's watched the Court for the last couple of decades knows that there are few jurists who bring the sort of experience and intelligence to the job of judging that Justice Thomas does. From his insightful and frequently-asked questions during oral arguments to his complete independence from pedestrian legal minds like that possessed by Justice Scalia, Justice Thomas is, dare I say, the greatest jurist to don the robe at One First Street.

Obama will rue the day that he defies the commonly-held belief in the judicial greatness of Justice Thomas. This is a HUGE deal that I think will tilt the election and mark the functional end of the Obamessiah's chances to win.

[LnGrrrR]

Here's what I don't get... WC acts like affirmative action is the only possible way a non-qualified person could be a surgeon. It couldn't be that the person doing applications is friends with the student's father, or the dean owes a guy a favor because the faterh donated money, or any number of other factors apart from skill that would allow a nonqualified person to have that job. His skepticism towards these other events seems to be nil. Why not just evaluate a doctor's skill independent of skin color?

On top of that, doesn't affirmative action only play into the PLACEMENT of these people into a program, and not their graduation? I assume that all black surgeons chosen for affirmative actions passed any requisite tests, making them equal to any white surgeon. Do you think the medical board allows more blacks to inflate their number, when they wouldn't normally? Do you think that such a small amount of blacks are in the medical field that they need to scrape the bottom of the barrel?

[Wild Cobra]

I knew I should have posted that comment in blue. I didn't think it was necessary(after all, who could be simple-minded enough to think I was being serious?), but Pixel called it.

If you are comfortable with people changing the meaning of definitions.

[Wild Cobra]

Tell me you didn't just bump a thread (a pretty asinine one at that) that was two years old to make this 'point.'

I did so because such talk someone was sidetracking another thread in the Geek section, bringing this up there.

[Wild Cobra]

Here's what I don't get... WC acts like affirmative action is the only possible way a non-qualified person could be a surgeon.

I'm not doing any such thing.

It couldn't be that the person doing applications is friends with the student's father, or the dean owes a guy a favor because the faterh donated money, or any number of other factors apart from skill that would allow a nonqualified person to have that job.

And this happens all the time. People regularly dislike the guy that made a position because of connections. These connections often make for bad decisions in hiring. On top of that, the people usually know. "Jim got a good job because his father is a CEO."

His skepticism towards these other events seems to be nil.

Not at all.

Why not just evaluate a doctor's skill independent of skin color?

When it comes to a surgeon, how often do you have a choice, or have a working relationship with one? Most people have very few surgeries in their life, if any. What are you going to base this evaluation on?b Other patient records are private.

Doctors, yes. You can change doctors pretty easily.

On top of that, doesn't affirmative action only play into the PLACEMENT of these people into a program, and not their graduation?

In the past, yes. I think legal challenges have effectively removed the quota system a few years ago.

I assume that all black surgeons chosen for affirmative actions passed any requisite tests, making them equal to any white surgeon.

A pass/fail test standard doesn't day .

Do you think the medical board allows more blacks to inflate their number, when they wouldn't normally?

I don't know. I don't know, but if quota's are used, how do we know the best candidates get a job, or if someone with the wrong skin color is passed over, until the next qualified black is found?

Do you think that such a small amount of blacks are in the medical field that they need to scrape the bottom of the barrel?

Now, absolutely not. At least not these lase several years. The time period in question is a decade and longer back, where physicians now may be bad choices.

Let me make just one point clear again. The quota part of affirmative action causes such things to be unknown. The unknown causes fear, sometimes unfounded. My examples are not as I believe in all cases, but possibilities, that keep the good black people down. The fear that these possibilities are why they have the positions they have. This is a problem caused by affirmative action, in an attempt to fix things.

[LnGrrrR]

Not at all.

You've already said you're skeptical of how some blacks are raised, but haven't mentioned a similar skepticism towards whites.

On top of that, I don't see you railing against "good old boy" networks that professions like lawyers and doctors can have (family practice, eh?) or even mentioning worry about these possibilities.

When it comes to a surgeon, how often do you have a choice, or have a working relationship with one? Most people have very few surgeries in their life, if any. What are you going to base this evaluation on?b Other patient records are private.

See, there's this thing we use called the INTERNET... where people post their personal opinions of various doctors. It's not perfect, but it sure does help.

And then there's also official things like medical boards, associations, etc etc that will disbar doctors who aren't performing up to snuff.

A pass/fail test standard doesn't day .

Uhm... so you don't think doctors have to pass tests to make it through medical school? Note: tests don't have to be written... it could be actually performing a medical procedure correctly. I'm assuming that all doctors have to perform surgeries/procedures correctly in order to get their degree, correct?

I don't know. I don't know, but if quota's are used, how do we know the best candidates get a job, or if someone with the wrong skin color is passed over, until the next qualified black is found?

How do you know the surgeon isn't the son of some doctor that got there on his father's pedigree? You don't. That's why you research what other patients say about your doctor.

Now, absolutely not. At least not these lase several years. The time period in question is a decade and longer back, where physicians now may be bad choices.

If it pertains to a decade or so ago, why do you still feel that way? And if all these blacks got in due to the quota system over a decade ago, then how do you still think they're in business? If they were poor surgeons/doctors, then wouldn't they be out of business, thanks to the power of the free market?

Let me make just one point clear again. The quota part of affirmative action causes such things to be unknown. The unknown causes fear, sometimes unfounded. My examples are not as I believe in all cases, but possibilities, that keep the good black people down. The fear that these possibilities are why they have the positions they have. This is a problem caused by affirmative action, in an attempt to fix things.

And I can show you examples of where affirmative action worked successfully. Look at the NFL, and the rule that at least one minority coach had to be interviewed for head coaching positions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rooney_Rule

At the start of the 2006 season, the overall percentage of African American coaches had jumped to 22%, up from 6% prior to the Rooney Rule.[4] Even so, the policy is still debated and no team has stated whether the Rooney Rule contributed to the hiring of a minority.

Tell me WC, in this case, do you think that a bunch of non-deserving blacks were able to get head coaching positions for the NFL due to the quota system? If so, someone better tell Tony Dungy (who won the Lombardi as HC of the Colts) and Mike Tomlin (who won the Lombardi as HC of the Steelers).

Or maybe, it was just that the GMs in charge of hiring people just weren't looking as keenly at persons of color for their job openings? Not saying it was intentional by any means, but it could very well be the case.

I don't think the good black person is complaining about affirmative action. In the case of Colts and Steelers fans, I don't think they're complaining either.

[Blake]

..... so most smart people avoid black surgeons........ It is a form of prejudice, but it isn't racism.

prej·u·dice\ˈpre-jə-dəs\ noun

Definition of PREJUDICE

c : an irrational at ude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics

rac·ism\ˈrā-ˌsi-zəm also -ˌshi-\ noun

Definition of RACISM

1: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

2: racial prejudice or discrimination

[Kill Yourself]

..... so most smart people avoid black surgeons........ It is a form of prejudice, but it isn't racism.

[Winehole23]

@VLE:

OH NOES! Obamessiah didn't say what you thought he said.

[Winehole23]

Failed at delivery.

[CuckingFunt]

Here is what started it on 8/18/08, post #59:



I think we all do. Affirmative action has done more harm to the black community than racism in some ways. Because of quotas, we cannot know if a person made certain position or jobs by merit, or by quotas.

Would you go to a black surgeon for an operation if he was a product of affirmative action? Of course this information isn't readily available, so most smart people avoid black surgeons. I wonder what type of impact this has on jobs for black. It is a form of prejudice, but it isn't racism.

Firstly, Affirmative Action is not now, nor has it ever been, a quota system. Its labeling as such is nothing more than rampant misunderstanding of what the program entails coupled with a few well placed talking points/catch phrases planted by its opponents. Affirmative Action has sought to ensure that women and people of color were given equal opportunity to education and employment, not that ins utions accept/employ a certain number of each identified minority.

Secondly, your mistrust of Black doctors, specifically, is not supported by your assertion that Affirmative Action is the sole source of your concern. If Affirmative Action was the only reason you had an issue with certain doctors, your above quote would say that most smart people avoid non-White non-male doctors. But, it doesn't. Not only do you show no signs of distrusting White doctors who may have been grandfathered into medical programs and allowed to coast by the power of their connections, your comments indicate no concerns about the competence of females or other people of color within the medical field. Throughout your many explanations and justifications, at no point have your comments moved beyond the issue of Black doctors. Indicating, despite your protestations to the contrary, an assumption or belief that Black people are uniquely and inherently more likely to need and/or receive special treatment or consideration than anyone else.

Lastly, in addition to being flat out wrong about Affirmative Action being a quota system, you are also wrong in your implication that it is a Black/White issue alone. Or even primarily. Women have benefited from Affirmative Action far more than Blacks or any other people of color.

[Wild Cobra]

Firstly, Affirmative Action is not now, nor has it ever been, a quota system.

The program started out with a proper perspective and intent. Later, parts of it did become quota systems.

Its labeling as such is nothing more than rampant misunderstanding of what the program entails coupled with a few well placed talking points/catch phrases planted by its opponents.

We disagree.

Affirmative Action has sought to ensure that women and people of color were given equal opportunity to education and employment, not that ins utions accept/employ a certain number of each identified minority.

Yes, that was how it started.

Secondly, your mistrust of Black doctors, specifically, is not supported by your assertion that Affirmative Action is the sole source of your concern.

That is an example, and you read too much into it.

If Affirmative Action was the only reason you had an issue with certain doctors, your above quote would say that most smart people avoid non-White non-male doctors.

You didn't read the whole thread, did you?

But, it doesn't. Not only do you show no signs of distrusting White doctors who may have been grandfathered into medical programs and allowed to coast by the power of their connections, your comments indicate no concerns about the competence of females or other people of color within the medical field.

So, I have to explore every possibility, rather than point out a factual harm that quota systems have caused?

Forget that.

Throughout your many explanations and justifications, at no point have your comments moved beyond the issue of Black doctors. Indicating, despite your protestations to the contrary, an assumption or belief that Black people are uniquely and inherently more likely to need and/or receive special treatment or consideration than anyone else.

It is not my belief they need more help, but the belief of those who started such systems.

Lastly, in addition to being flat out wrong about Affirmative Action being a quota system, you are also wrong in your implication that it is a Black/White issue alone. Or even primarily. Women have benefited from Affirmative Action far more than Blacks or any other people of color.

I never said it was. Did I.

[ElNono]

Would you go to a black surgeon for an operation if he was a product of affirmative action? Of course this information isn't readily available, so most smart people avoid black surgeons. I wonder what type of impact this has on jobs for black. It is a form of prejudice, but it isn't racism.

bumpity bump

[ElNono]

For comparison, since you're now denying it:

Actually, that's nothing like what you said. I could go back and pull up the quote, but in a nuts you made clear you wouldn't trust a black surgeon since he could be a product of affirmative action. Never mind the fact he need to have passed every exam much like everyone else.

[TeyshaBlue]

I especially like the qualifier "most smart people". Because, if your default reflex is that Black Doc might have been the recipient of some kind of affirmative action aid, he's automatically suspect by way of the presumptive "you can't really know". ing ludicrous.

[MannyIsGod]

I love this thread. I actually had forgotten that Viva stuck RAM in a motherboard backwards. How in the man?!?