R-e-s-p-e-c-t

[1369]

Well, post hoc ergo propter hoc, the US and the Netherlands aside, it has been proven in control studies and reported in all sorts of medical journals that an excess of protein will decrease calcium retention, expelling calcium through the kidneys with urine. Taking that into account, you could reasonably infer that the corollary evidence is in fact causal.

And that's probably true as well.

[Cry Havoc]

Well, post hoc ergo propter hoc, the US and the Netherlands aside, it has been proven in control studies and reported in all sorts of medical journals that an excess of protein will decrease calcium retention, expelling calcium through the kidneys with urine. Taking that into account, you could reasonably infer that the corollary evidence is in fact causal.

Damn dude. When did you get all sciencey and ?

[balli]

The quan ative aspect of the calcium-protein interaction story can be approached best as follows. As urinary calcium rises, a potential hypocalcemic stress is created, to which the parathyroid glands respond with elevated parathyroid hormone (PTH) secretion. PTH in turn acts on 3 end organs: bone, gut, and kidney. The gut effect is mediated by increased renal synthesis of 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D, which in turn leads to improved calcium absorption. At the same time, PTH enhances bone resorption, so that some of the calciuric loss is offset from the bony reserves, rather than exclusively from the diet. It is in this way that high protein intakes, leading to incompletely offset urinary calcium loss, might produce bone loss.

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/75/4/609

but to be honest, it also says this:

The homeostatic feedback system controlling the calcium economy does not regulate calcium intake and has no mechanism for assessing it. The system simply uses the combined calcium input from the 3 effector organs to prevent or offset a decrease in serum ionized calcium resulting from an augmented calcium leak from the body. In this way, any calciuric agent would be predicted to affect bone negatively, mainly at low calcium intakes. In brief, it appears increasingly well established that protein and calcium act synergistically on bone if both are present in adequate quan ies in the diet, but that protein may seem effectively antagonistic toward bone (because of its calciuric effect) when calcium intake is low.

I would simply argue that the amount of protein we get from dairy is overly adequate and is therefore not present at an ideal level for maintaining proper calcium balance.

[balli]

Damn dude. When did you get all sciencey and ?

Ugh, when I went vegan.

[1369]

I like how they threw "might produce bone loss" in there. Well , I'm convinced.

Or, perhaps not.

Despite the extensively do ented effect of protein on urinary calcium loss when studied under controlled conditions, there is surprisingly little evidence in the real world outside of the metabolic unit that high protein intakes reduce bone mass or increase fracture risk. One bit of evidence, commonly cited as support for a harmful effect of protein, is the study of Abelow et al. (1992), which showed a direct correlation between hip fracture risk in populations and their corresponding protein intakes. However, such comparisons, involving a wide variety of ethnic groups and nations, are both inappropriate and unconvincing, if for no other reason than because there are so many other confounding variables that may well be more important. For example, in this instance, one can subs ute other variables such as la ude or gross national product for protein intake, and the plot would look very much the same. Moreover, ethnic groups differ in other ways, such as in hip geometries, which are known to be associated with different intrinsic fragility; hence lumping such different populations together in a single plot is very much a matter of mixing apples with oranges. Only when differences in fracture rate can be found within an ethnic or national group as a function of varying protein intake will this type of observational study yield plausible conclusions. Here the evidence is decidedly mixed.

[Sense]

While I may not back balli completely on all of his statements regarding HOW milk is bad for you... according to some of my friends who have passed kidney stones. Don't drink too much milk.

How ever this has made me hungry for some reason, so I'm going to pour me a bowl of cereal.



Also, Darrin hasn't confirmed if he's gay or a woman.

[thispego]

You are wrong. Do you know which two countries have the highest rates of osteoporosis? The US and the Netherlands. Do you care to guess which two nations consume the most dairy per capita?

so correlation DOES prove causation!

[balli]

so correlation DOES prove causation!

In this case it certainly goes a long way. Despite the apples and oranges reference above, I have a hard time believing that the nature of American and Hollish pelve differ appreciably from those of other western European populations who don't consume as much dairy.

(Neverminding the detrimental cardio and digestive effects)

But whatever, it's your body.

[thispego]

balli is vegan?? You just destroyed your entire argument, friend

[balli]

Vegan isn't even good enough. It's my belief that humans should basically be eating rice, beans, whole proteins like hemp seeds/quinoa and vegetables with some fruit for dessert.

We eat way too much wheat, soy (which is feminising our testes) meat and dairy.

That said, I eat salmon once a week and probably some form of cheese too. I only say vegan because I'm certainly more than a vegetarian and nobody understands when you call yourself '94% flesh free'. If I was a true vegan I wouldn't wear a leather belt.

[Goran Dragic]

so correlation DOES prove causation!

No, but the side effects of having too much protein prove causation of osteoporosis.

[1369]

No, but the side effects of having too much protein prove causation of osteoporosis.

Really?

[Goran Dragic]

Really?

Yes. Your body releases acids when it has too much protein to digest and those acids suck calcium from your body. I'm not sure if milk causes osteoporosis since you're also drinking calcium with milk, but people who eat tons of protein on a daily basis (AKA too much meat) are at higher risk for osteoporosis. Eskimos have the highest rate of osteoporosis by far because of their fish based diet.

[balli]

Really?

I wouldn't be questioning the validity of research because of differences between control groups and then cite a study concerning only post-menopausal women. It's not like the life lived before menopause has nothing to do with the development of osteoporosis. Or that the load of hormonal changes don't have an effect when comparing that group to the gen pop.

[Cry Havoc]

Vegan isn't even good enough. It's my belief that humans should basically be eating rice, beans, whole proteins like hemp seeds/quinoa and vegetables with some fruit for dessert.

We eat way too much wheat, soy (which is feminising our testes) meat and dairy.

That said, I eat salmon once a week and probably some form of cheese too. I only say vegan because I'm certainly more than a vegetarian and nobody understands when you call yourself '94% flesh free'. If I was a true vegan I wouldn't wear a leather belt.

You have more rage than any other vegan I've ever met. I'd hate to see your blood pressure if you ate a lot of meat.

I don't mean it in a condescending way. Just as an observation.

[CuckingFunt]

I don't see the point of questioning or implying sexuality as a taunt when the OP has, on several occasions, said that he's bi.

Seriously, am I the only one who pays attention to anything other than calf tats around here?

[balli]

You have more rage than any other vegan I've ever met. I'd hate to see your blood pressure if you ate a lot of meat.

I don't mean it in a condescending way. Just as an observation.

lol. No worries. My blood pressure isn't out of control high, but it is high and was higher before I switched my diet.

I don't see the point of questioning or implying sexuality as a taunt when the OP has, on several occasions, said that he's bi.

Seriously, am I the only one who pays attention to anything other than calf tats around here?

huh? I don't remember anything like that. I think you're projecting.

[JoeChalupa]

milk does give me gas but I really don't mind it that much as I like to let 'em rip.

[JoeChalupa]

Now I did find those vegan babes wearing lettuce leaves for bra's on the news sexy and passing out vegan hot dogs.

[mrsmaalox]

I don't see the point of questioning or implying sexuality as a taunt when the OP has, on several occasions, said that he's bi.

Seriously, am I the only one who pays attention to anything other than calf tats around here?

Yes, the only one

[JoeChalupa]

I don't pay attention to one's sexual preferences and I don't find all the taunting of sexuality all that funny either. Well, maybe I did when I was much, much younger.

[balli]

I find it way more humanistic to make fun of people for being poor, as opposed to making fun of people for being gay.

[mrsmaalox]

I don't pay attention to one's sexual preferences and I don't find all the taunting of sexuality all that funny either. Well, maybe I did when I was much, much younger.

Well it really seems that's all this place has been lately, taunting. Taunting of sex, race, age, religion, tattoos, etc. None of it is very funny in my opinion.

[JoeChalupa]

well it really seems that's all this place has been lately, taunting. Taunting of sex, race, age, religion, tattoos, etc. None of it is very funny in my opinion.

+1

[austN Spur]

the whole milk debate makes me want a glass, with some of these chocolate chip cookies i have here.

but i'm surprised the OP hasnt given any closure as to what he did to his buddy.

also the vcr saved my ass when i was given a 50" hdtv monitor and i had no other way of running cable into the monitor. thanks to the vcr i ran the cable into the vcr and audio video/cables to the tv. I guess i could contact time warner and get a box but then i would have to pay for cable which they currently have been giving to me for free for some time now.