Who would you pick for a franchise player?

[Chieflion]

1. LeBron James
2. Dwight Howard

[ezau]

It's a toss-up between Dwight, Lebron, and Durant. Why is Kobe even in the discussion? The dude's been in the league since the Jurassic period.

[Venti Quattro]

Dwight or Durant.

[Darrin]

Right now I'd give my left nut for Chris Paul in a Detroit uniform. I'd take Carmelo for the whole Pistons roster, however. That's the available players and my team needs them. Luring one may net the other as well.

[ezau]

Right now I'd give my left nut for Chris Paul in a Detroit uniform. I'd take Carmelo for the whole Pistons roster, however. That's the available players and my team needs them. Luring one may net the other as well.

If I'm not mistaken, didn't the Pistons had the chance to draft Carmelo back in 03?

[HarlemHeat37]

Supergirl is honestly such a ty poster..Dwight Howard is weak defensively?..you can add that to the many ridiculous statements she has made in the NBA forum, particularly since The Donation happened..

As for the question, I easily take Lebron..he has already proven he can take mediocre teams to the NBA Finals and an average supporting cast to the ECF, so I can only imagine what he could do with a competent supporting cast..he'll show it in Miami this season..

Howard would be #2, for obvious reasons..

[himat]

Supergirl is honestly such a ty poster..Dwight Howard is weak defensively?..you can add that to the many ridiculous statements she has made in the NBA forum, particularly since The Donation happened..

I think she mixed up the words offensively and defensively in her post. As you may have noticed she also said Howard is great on offense, so she made a mix up.

[HarlemHeat37]

Ya, makes sense, my bad..although she definitely is one of the tiest posters on SpursTalk..

[Cane]

Easily James and he's at least a tier or two above than the rest of these guys. I'd go James, Dwight, then Durant on the list.

Dwight seems too weak when it comes to mental toughness (whines about his coach, whines on his blog about feeling like he's persecuted by the refs, meltdowns on the court, makes negative impressions of his coach which seems ty no matter how you spin it) and compared to past elite big men he's more of a project on offense that goes way beyond just post moves - he's lacking when it comes to IQ and fundamentals like footwork and dribbling. He also goes for the highlight reel blocks and in the playoffs his numbers seem hollow especially when he fouls himself out like an idiot. Howard also seems to spend too much time working on movies which is surprising considering how much improvement he could use. After playing with Kobe and the rest of the Team USA you'd think his work ethic would be nearly impeccable. For that reason and the fact that he's already been in the league for six years makes it hard for to believe that Dwight will improve much; this seems like what Dwights going to be. A very distant second to James although if you don't keep the King happy he'll leave (but after Dwight defended James this offseason and considering he was part of that Team USA - safe bet he'd leave in similar cir stances and in many ways his team seem like the Lebron Cavs team in the sense they disappoint in the playoffs but dominate the reg season).

Durant's mental toughness deserves to be in question too considering his lackluster first round although unlike Dwight that was his first experience and it was up against the defending and still champion Lakers. However Durant's team seemed like they had a better shot than the Howard did against LA in the 2009 Finals (5 game series); only a clutch Gasol putback away from a Game 7 for Duran'ts team too. Still for all of Dwight's faults his impact can be greater but I think Durant is more committed to improving his game - for that reason I wouldn't be surprised if Durant beats Howard in MVP votes and overall impact but he's gotta prove that. Durant also doesn't whine to his coach and on his blog like a little unlike big man Dwight Howard. Durant also seems more loyal and respectable than any of these guys FWIW.

All three of these guys have also been iron men when it comes to durability but obviously Dwight would suffer the most if he ran into injury since he has no range, he's not 7 feet tall, predictable post moves, and his overall game is based on his elite athleticism. James has the court vision and more skills to add; Durant's got a shooting touch that should age well.

[8FOR!3]

1. LeBron James
2. Dwight Howard
3. Kevin Durant
4. Chris Paul
5. Dwyane Wade
6. Carmelo Anthony

You can have the rest.

[Darrin]

If I'm not mistaken, didn't the Pistons had the chance to draft Carmelo back in 03?

[JamStone]

Easily James and he's at least a tier or two above than the rest of these guys. I'd go James, Dwight, then Durant on the list.

You make some really good points on why James and arguably Durant are better players than Dwight Howard. If the question was another "who is the best player" then I'd be pretty much on board with what you said.

However, that wasn't the question. The question is, "who would you pick for a franchise player?"

Two of the biggest factors I'd look at for in a franchise player would be:

1. Who could I most easily build around to construct a championship contending team?
2. Who would help me sell the most tickets?

Those aren't the only things I would consider, but they'd be at or very high on the list.

Of those three players, LeBron, Dwight, and Durant, LeBron is easily the best player among them. And, I wouldn't argue much if you said Durant is already a better player than Dwight. But having the best player in the league, especially if that player is a perimeter player, doesn't guarantee championship success. Since Michael Jordan, the 12 subsequent NBA championships have been dominated by teams with great big men. The 2004 Pistons might be the only exception, with perhaps the 2008 Celtics being possibly another. But even those two teams had dominant big men defensively.

I know that in the NBA, a dominant wing player like LeBron or Kobe or Wade can help a team win a championship. But even those great wing players, without great front court help can also mean the team is mediocre or worse (2005-2007 Lakers, post 2006 Heat). I also know it's easier to acquire very good perimeter players than it is to acquire very good big men. If I already have a big man who can put up 18-20 ppg and 12-15 rpg on 60% shooting, even if I acquire a very good but not an elite perimeter wing scorer, the team can have a lot of success. Whereas, giving a superstar wing player only "good" but not "elite" front court help means the team will be slightly above average at best.

Give me a dominant big man, even with as many holes as Dwight has in his game, and I'm in position to build around him more easily than I can build around LeBron or Kobe or Wade. The NBA simply has a lack of quality dominant big men. With Dwight, I'd already be several steps ahead of the majority of teams in the league.

That second factor goes more to why I'd choose Dwight over Durant. LeBron sells tickets. No doubt about it. He has the marketing appeal and the personality and charisma to carry a franchise, as we saw in Cleveland. But, compare Dwight and his charisma and personality to Kevin Durant's soft spoken, pimpled face image, and I have more confidence that my team will get more national exposure and hype with Dwight as the franchise star than it would led by Durant.

I'd be foolish to say Dwight is better than LeBron. And LeBron is certainly not a bad choice among the young stars in the league to want to start a franchise and build a team around. But the factors I just mention is why I would still take Dwight over the others.

[Cane]

JamStone, It might be easier to build a franchise around Dwight but he's definitely a couple of tiers below James and wouldn't be as great of a piece to build around. In this league its easier to counter Dwight than it is LeBron. To counter Dwight all you need is a player with comparable size that will play competent defense; it can even be old has-beens like Shaq and Sheed since Dwight has no range at all and his footwork, arsenal in the post, etc seem very lacking.

Imo Dwight Howard is just simply too much of a project to be a better franchise player- he should be tearing up the league and he does in the regular season but he can't even take his man consistently 1v1 against the great teams in the playoffs. In fact he seems too prone to bad decisions whether its dumb fouls (he made history for the wrong reason in this past playoffs; a lesser team like the Bobcats baited him to the bench...that shouldn't happen with truly elite big men and very lacking when it comes to being a franchise player), turnovers, passing out of double teams.

Dwight may be the "best big man in the league" but he's arguably the worst "best big man in the league" the NBA has seen and it shows in the playoffs. His strength on the defensive end seems to mostly revolve around his athleticism and he's posted the worst block values the NBA has seen in the past few years. Dwight really lacks when it comes to basic fundamentals and IQ and once his athleticism goes your franchise is really screwed since what skills or intangibles does he possess to make up for it?

LeBron has never struggled as badly as Dwight has and is simply much more talented, tougher, and much more of a superstar than Howard on and off the court. Dwight's a guy you can't even trust to stay on the court and doesn't need to be doubled and can be frustrated to the point where a system built around him will collapse.

[Kai]

haters. Lebron should be the only answer.

[will_spurs]

I don't see many franchise players on this list, especially not Amar'e. Roy, Williams and Rose are really good, but not franchise players in my book, at least not yet.

James, Nowitzki, Howard and Paul are superstars, but they have proven that they are soft, which is a nice way to say that they are losers. They just don't have the compe ive mindset and killer instinct required to lead a team to win at the highest level.

So that leaves us with Durant, Wade and Bryant. Bryant would be the obvious choice if not for his age... this guy is ancient by now. There's just no upside. Wade is young enough, but his injuries lead me to think his career will be short.

So even though he's still unproven (in terms of rings at least), I'd have to go with Durant now. Actually 10 years from now I won't be surprised to see that Durant is the one mentioned in the MJ comparisons, not James.

[JamStone]

Cane, your arguments continue to be ones based on player comparisons, not the factors I mentioned. You even said yourself it would be easier to build around Dwight. That's one of the main things I'm looking at when I'm starting a franchise. An easier avenue to build a championship contender. Both charismatic personalities who will sell tickets. But in today's NBA, I feel Dwight, with all his faults, can do more with average teammates than LeBron with average teammates. Heck, two seasons ago in the 2009 playoffs, Dwight's team beat LeBron's team. LeBron played better. LeBron was the best player in the series, but Dwight's team won. LeBron had enough talent the last two seasons to have the best record in the league, and Dwight's team went farther in the playoffs both years.

It's not about who I think the better player is. Or who has fewer holes in his game. Or who can take people on one-on-one more successfully. I look at the rest of the league and see that some of the best centers in the league include Chris Kaman and Andrew Bogut and Joakim Noah and the like. I think having a guy like Dwight Howard gives me a better shot at building a championship contender than having a guy like LeBron. With LeBron or Kobe or Wade, I feel you need another great player in the front court. With Dwight, I feel like I don't need to find a way to get an elite perimeter scorer. I can find guys a tier below and still have the team contend.

That's how I look at it.

You know a guy like Bill Russell was even worse an offensive player than Dwight Howard is. He was a below average offensive player. Does that matter? He still won 11 les. I look at the state of NBA big men, and I'm fine that Dwight Howard has a lot of holes in his game because there aren't any other really great and dominant big men in the NBA anyway. The ones who arguably are either are old and on their decline or they're really perimeter players who play the center/PF positions.

I think you also put too much an emphasis about Dwight's offense. He's still putting up 18-20 ppg on around 60% shooting and still commands a double team. I find another guy who closes the game. Dwight's contributions aren't only or even mostly what he provides defensively, in the paint, and on the boards. You add his defense into the equation, and he still gives you 20 points on 60%, and you simply have to consider him.

[Cane]

JamStone, while I did write that Dwight would be easier to build around I contend that James would still be a more productive franchise player on and off the court. For me its not about being easy, its the ultimate goal of a championship and James seems like the best option but your perspective is logical as well.

Imo Dwight has way too many downsides and is more of a project superstar than a legitimate one especially when compared to past elite bigs. Comparing him to Russell seems inadequate for a variety of reasons but mainly because Dwight doesn't have the fundamentals or IQ on his level and the NBA is pretty different now. Howard's also easier to counter in today's league than LeBron James. Boston just got one for the vet min in Shaq and the 7th seeded Bobcats frustrated Howard into the history books for his terrible fouling.

Dwight's a guy you can't even trust to stay on the court due to his fouling tendencies, also whines about his coach, whines on his blog about refs, is reckless or dumb to the point where he KO's and elbows everyone in the league (New England area probably despises him after the he's done in the playoffs), picks up technicals to the point where he might get suspended, etc. Having a franchise player that fouls himself out against the 7th seed team in the East throughout the series is On the other hand James will leave your franchise if unhappy but considering Howard was on that TEAM USA and defended James this offseason... he probably has the same at ude.

A franchise player is also someone you can throw the rock to and expect good things to happen and that just doesn't happen as it should with Howard; especially in the playoffs. He turns the ball over, not good at drilling, he's not good at passing, subpar footwork, can be single covered by much lesser players, and worst of all he's susceptible to fouling early and often on both ends of the court. He's also got zero range; it seems much easier to counter Howard than it is LeBron and it shows even in this elite big man deprived era since has-beens like Sheed and Shaq will give him serious trouble and lessen his impact. even his defense is overrated since he goes for the highlight reel plays which he forsakes the fundamentals behind protecting the rim (and he admits it too); he also has posted the worst block value the NBA has seen since that stat was recorded. He's the embodiment of why some stats can be misleading but he doesn't even average 20/10 in this era of big men.

Go with James because he's a much better player, much bigger star, and has led horrible teams into some of the most dominant runs the NBA has seen. However both guys have failed to meet expectations since their Finals runs however James has been much more productive on and off the court and is a superior enough talent that you pick him over Dwight rather easily.

[Poirot]

With Dwight, I feel like I don't need to find a way to get an elite perimeter scorer. I can find guys a tier below and still have the team contend.

I feel just the opposite. If Howard wants to win a championship (and not just contend), he needs a top-tier wing. Even Shaq needed Wade and Kobe.

[Supergirl]

Good arguments made for Howard...even though I agree he's soft, he's easily the best big man in the league, and all championship teams post MJ have had a dominant big man, except the 2004 Pistons. I would include KG as a dominant big man, even though like Duncan he plays PF.

Howard makes a lot of sense, though Kevin Durant is, I think, the most talented and well-rounded player on the list outside of Kobe Bryant, who is too old to build around...

[ajh18]

Talent-wise, it's Lebron. And it's not that close.

But I wouldn't pick him as my franchise player. First of all, I wouldn't be willing to cater to guys like "Maverick" Carter and "Worldwide" Wes. I wouldn't want my star to get special treatment (or at least I'd want to minimize it), because I think it sets a bad example for the rest of the team. I'd want someone good for the community, loyal, and to create the "image" I want for my franchise.

Lebron, while the most physically gifted player on the planet, doesn't have those things. So for me it would come down to Durant or Howard.

And it's funny, because normally I'd pick defense, rebounding, and a big man over a scorering wing. I think scoring is the more replaceable talent. And yet, for some reason, I think I'd go with Durant. He's young, long, an impeccable scorer. I think you put a good defensive big and a big with SOME offensive skills, a decent athlete/wing defender, and a competent point guiard who can shoot the three, and I think you've got a le team.