Barack Huessein Obama and his religion. Roll your eyes when it isn't true.
Dude's got Muslim background and sat through 20 years of black seperatist theology. He also hasn't picked a church to attend in DC.
And people wonder why there's questions about his faith.
I take him at his word that he's Christian, but the man doesn't exactly wear his beliefs on his sleeve.
When was the last time you demanded that a President show his credential on religion. It's because of the skin color, no other reason. Bob Jones University influenced Judicial nominees from George W. Bush and didn't get this much flak.
I don't care if he's an athiest. You brought up Obama.
General You. I brought up a great example.
What you don't seem to get is that it's not the moderate Muslim's job to apologize for extremist Muslims either.
So like you're saying, you think it's fair to blame the whole for the actions of a small minority. I don't know how much sense that makes.
I mean, that's like calling all Tea Parties racist for the actions of a select few. But I guess there's a reason that people will be su ious (and rightfully so) of racist Tea Partiers. I actually feel bad for the regular, law-abiding, fiscally conservative Tea Partiers. They suffer because their movement has so many racists. But it's not my job to apologize to the moderate Tea Partiers for the extremists among them.
Christians aren't true Christians unless they pray in public, loudly and often!
Man, it's fun creating strawmen. I can see why DarrinS enjoys it so.
Has Darrin apologized for the Oklahoma City bombing yet?
I think he's referring to DarrinS here.
I've given up on Nancy but I respect your actual takes and think there might be a language barrier or you've just got a bad read on me, or are simply reading into my posts more than you should -- I believe this happened with a post on Gist recently but I could be mistaken.
Let me make this as clear as possible and I'll be on my way.
The only thing I've taken exception to is the belief that all whom oppose are racists. They're ALL coming from a place hatred, fear or are simply stupid. So instead of preaching to the choir or trying to convert the converted, let's try to look at this from the eyes of the people I know and believe to genuinely oppose the community center without malice or racist/fearful intolerance.
People I know and believe to be out there:
They take exception with the extremist element and they resent the fact this Imam and the people responsible for the building of the community center would be as insensitive as to not take that into consideration. From their understanding, this mosque is not being placed in an under-served community, the logistics of the Muslim community and commute makes little-to-no sense to build it where they're building it, and they had plenty of options available to build the center in a better or just more sensible venue. There were options available that wouldn't have brought forth the emotion of 9-11 and they resent the fact they wouldn't choose one of them -- common sense would lead anyone to believe the groups and supporters of those who perpetrated the acts would spin the new community center as a gift from Allah and some kind of positive sign to their cause.
The community center:
Once deciding on the location and starting the development process they had to either believe their intentions were so pure naivety lost sight of potential objections; they were aware of some potential objection but believed they were in the "right" and the opposition wouldn't be overwhelming; they believed they were in the "right" and that's all they needed to know to move forward (objections or protestations be damned); they didn't care to even acknowledge whether they were in the "right" or "wrong," only that they had the right to move forward and couldn't care less about outside perceptions or views; or -- in the most extreme and unlikely case -- it was a big ol' F-U and affront to the victims of 9-11 and the American non-Muslim community.
Perception:
Terrorists will spin whatever happens in a way to help their cause. If the community center is built, it's a sign from Allah and validation to their cause and actions; if it's not built it will simply be because of the ugly, intolerant, Zionist who demonizes their faith. The Zionist oppressor strikes again. Bottom line, win-win.
So what's the best and most appropriate thing to do?
Run to 9-11. Embrace it.
There isn't a doubt in my mind this mosque should be built. Not one. But I know good people whom oppose -- for reasons I've stated on numerous occasions -- and I respect their view, even in disagreement. The potential gains for the extremist/"bad" Muslims and the resentment they have for "good" Muslims allowing that potential outcome is just too much to bear -- 9-11 brings forth just too much emotional baggage and an unwillingness to allow any kind of dishonor to come to those victim's memory; and not from the vast majority of Muslims but from those that would use the new mosque's building and location as validation to their cause.
Like it or not, America and the real world isn't a utopia. There's a give and take we all have deal with to make things work, even sometimes when we're in the right -- baggage, perceptions, ignorance, etc., exist in us all and are brought to the table when dealing with anything, whether it's a people or view. America wasn't founded on Islamic principles. Islam may be the largest faith there is, but it ain't in America. Islam is a minority and, thus, is not as well know or understood. Therefore, it's going to take a little extra effot on their behalf to assimilate and find common ground and understanding with their fellow Americans. It's no different than if you're a foreign-exchange student, really. Perceptions, misconceptions, ignorance and the ability to get passed them, take time and an effort on your behalf. If you want to make friends and find acceptance, you have to be willing to put yourself out there -- sitting by yourself or with the two or three people like you isn't going to help your cause.
Back to 9-11 and running to it. How do you make this thing a positive for the Muslim-American community and take away any kind of promotion/fuel for the extremist's cause?
Simple. Use some common sense.
Dedicate the community center to the memory of those that lost their lives on 9-11. Put some kind of commemorative plaque or statue outside the community center as a sign of solidarity to your fellow Americans. Show that the actions were not only an affront to America and its ideals, but to Islam and what it truly means to be a Muslim -- convert the convertible with actions of good faith.
There will always be cooks. Always. But if the people responsible for this community center just make a small gesture like that, they take away any kind of unease from those with genuine objection. They'll also allow themselves the opportunity to win over and convert the legitimately ignorant.
But that's just too commonsensical and stuff.
"all whom oppose are racists"
the "mosk" (it's a community center near a sacred ty bar) is a Fox Repug Propaganda wedge/inflammatory issue, intentional, fabricated Islamophobia, and the sheeple yelling the loudist are Islamophobes/racists, esp the Manichean "Christians" who see the world as "Christian" warriors vs Islam and anybody else.
I think I read you well enough, Vaginia.
Let me make this as clear as possible.We'll see.
Not just racists......Islamophobes.The only thing I've taken exception to is the belief that all whom oppose are racists.
If there is another reason, please share in less than 1000 words.
Exactly. So why do you take exception to it when someone else says it?They're ALL coming from a place hatred, fear or are simply stupid.
I'm betting you don't come up with anything more than Islamophobia or racism, but I hope you finally do.So instead of preaching to the choir or trying to convert the converted, let's try to look at this from the eyes of the people I know and believe to genuinely oppose the community center without malice or racist/fearful intolerance.
People I know and believe to be out there:
They take exception with the extremist element and they resent the fact this Imam and the people responsible for the building of the community center would be as insensitive as to not take that into consideration. From their understanding, this mosque is not being placed in an under-served community, the logistics of the Muslim community and commute makes little-to-no sense to build it where they're building it, and they had plenty of options available to build the center in a better or just more sensible venue.
They are taking their exceptions and frustrations with the extremist element out on the law abiding citizens.
Racism or Islamophobia? Maybe a little of both.
When the mosque closes down because of it's poor logistics, the racists and Islamophobes can flip the tables and declare victory.
Who specifically exactly are you talking about that is a supporter of the 9-11 acts?There were options available that wouldn't have brought forth the emotion of 9-11 and they resent the fact they wouldn't choose one of them -- common sense would lead anyone to believe the groups and supporters of those who perpetrated the acts would spin the new community center as a gift from Allah and some kind of positive sign to their cause.
And other than high fiving each other, what is a literal victory in hand that they can lay claim to?
The motives of why they are building it are irrelevant.The community center:
Once deciding on the location and starting the development process they had to either believe their intentions were so pure naivety lost sight of potential objections; they were aware of some potential objection but believed they were in the "right" and the opposition wouldn't be overwhelming; they believed they were in the "right" and that's all they needed to know to move forward (objections or protestations be damned); they didn't care to even acknowledge whether they were in the "right" or "wrong," only that they had the right to move forward and couldn't care less about outside perceptions or views; or -- in the most extreme and unlikely case -- it was a big ol' F-U and affront to the victims of 9-11 and the American non-Muslim community.
If they are legally building it within city building codes, then there is absolutely no good reason at all to be opposed to it.
Is there such a thing as big ol' F-U phobia?
Nice example of Islamophobia.Perception:
Terrorists will spin whatever happens in a way to help their cause. If the community center is built, it's a sign from Allah and validation to their cause and actions; if it's not built it will simply be because of the ugly, intolerant, Zionist who demonizes their faith. The Zionist oppressor strikes again. Bottom line, win-win.
Bull .So what's the best and most appropriate thing to do?
Run to 9-11. Embrace it.
There isn't a doubt in my mind this mosque should be built. Not one. But I know good people whom oppose -- for reasons I've stated on numerous occasions -- and I respect their view, even in disagreement. The potential gains for the extremist/"bad" Muslims and the resentment they have for "good" Muslims allowing that potential outcome is just too much to bear -- 9-11 brings forth just too much emotional baggage and an unwillingness to allow any kind of dishonor to come to those victim's memory; and not from the vast majority of Muslims but from those that would use the new mosque's building and location as validation to their cause.
Like it or not, America and the real world isn't a utopia. There's a give and take we all have deal with to make things work, even sometimes when we're in the right -- baggage, perceptions, ignorance, etc., exist in us all and are brought to the table when dealing with anything, whether it's a people or view. America wasn't founded on Islamic principles. Islam may be the largest faith there is, but it ain't in America. Islam is a minority and, thus, is not as well know or understood. Therefore, it's going to take a little extra effot on their behalf to assimilate and find common ground and understanding with their fellow Americans. It's no different than if you're a foreign-exchange student, really. Perceptions, misconceptions, ignorance and the ability to get passed them, take time and an effort on your behalf. If you want to make friends and find acceptance, you have to be willing to put yourself out there -- sitting by yourself or with the two or three people like you isn't going to help your cause.
Back to 9-11 and running to it. How do you make this thing a positive for the Muslim-American community and take away any kind of promotion/fuel for the extremist's cause?
Simple. Use some common sense.
Dedicate the community center to the memory of those that lost their lives on 9-11. Put some kind of commemorative plaque or statue outside the community center as a sign of solidarity to your fellow Americans. Show that the actions were not only an affront to America and its ideals, but to Islam and what it truly means to be a Muslim -- convert the convertible with actions of good faith.
There will always be cooks. Always. But if the people responsible for this community center just make a small gesture like that, they take away any kind of unease from those with genuine objection. They'll also allow themselves the opportunity to win over and convert the legitimately ignorant.
But that's just too commonsensical and stuff.
Common sense says that if you have a problem with a legally built mosque then you should check yourself for racism or Islamophobia or come up with a damn good reason why it shouldn't be built.
Different words, but basically the same 1000 word post as the others. Nice job at clearing up nothing, Vaginia.
Last edited by Blake; 08-31-2010 at 03:00 PM.
You're either a fantastic troll or possibly missing your calling.
People make good money disseminating talking points and being one for "the cause."
lol responding in-depth to a person who's given up on them
lol doing so and complaining about the length of post not directed at her
lol Nancy
lol responding to a person who he claims he gave up onlol responding in-depth to a person who's given up on them
lol doing so and complaining about the length of post not directed at her
lol Nancy
lol vaginia
lol thinking given up on you means anything other than on your intelligence or the topic at hand
lol Vagina comeback
lol Nancy.
ROTFLMMFAOYRFIIF
Fact check: it's a mosque that they want to build there.
From Park51 website "a mosque will be located in the planned final structure of Park51"
http://www.park51.org/faq.htm
Men bahaving badly.
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/united...ry?id=11517664
ABC News Exclusive: Two Men on United Flight from Chicago Arrested on 'Preparation of a Terrorist Attack' in Amsterdam
fact check: there's a mosque in the pentagon.
Whose facts are you checking?
do muslims consider a mosque as a chapel?
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