God did not create the universe, says Hawking

[Blake]

It was a symbol of Sampson's obedience to God. These are rather petty semantics you're arguing.

1 Corinthians 11:14 (King James Version)

14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

God commanded Sampson to shame himself.

Nothing to argue.

[Blake]

Redzero, for the LAST time, slavery (the way we view it today) is not ok. Some of us have other to do during the day.

so redzero is stopping you from doing other ?

or is God telling you to post in this thread?

either way, your lack of self control is telling.

[redzero]

Redzero, for the LAST time, slavery (the way we view it today) is not ok. Some of us have other to do during the day.

Was indentured servitude back then okay? You haven't answered that yet.

[Blake]

Yeah so I don't know if this fits are not, but here discuss:

The newest "solution" to design in the universe is a belief in the multi-universe theory. This theory requires one to believe that there are more universes in existence than the number of all the subatomic particles that exist in our universe. Our universe just happened to be one of the few that is able to support life. Here is what a recent article from Science says about this hypothetical "multiverse" spinning off an "infinity" of other universes:

"Uncomfortable with the idea that physical parameters like lambda [cosmological constant] are simply lucky accidents, some cosmologists, including Hawking, have suggested that there have been an infinity of big bangs going off in a larger 'multiverse,' each with different values for these parameters. Only those values that are compatible with life could be observed by beings such as ourselves."9

What scientific evidence exists to support the multiverse model? None! Not only is there no evidence, the physics of our own universe requires that we will never be able to obtain any evidence about any other universe (even if it does exist). Even secular websites admit that such ideas amount to nothing more than unfalsifiable metaphysics:

"Appeals to multiple or "parallel" cosmoses or to an infinite number of cosmic "Big Bang/Crunch" oscillations as essential elements of proposed mechanisms are not acceptable in submissions due to a lack of empirical correlation and testability. Such beliefs are without hard physical evidence and must therefore be considered unfalsifiable, currently outside the methodology of scientific investigation to confirm or disprove, and therefore more mathematically theoretical and metaphysical than scientific in nature. Recent cosmological evidence also suggests insufficient mass for gravity to reverse continuing cosmic expansion. The best cosmological evidence thus far suggests the cosmos is finite rather than infinite in age."10

According to Paul Davies:

"Whether it is God, or man, who tosses the dice, turns out to depend on whether multiple universes really exist or not….If instead, the other universes are relegated to ghost worlds, we must regard our existence as a miracle of such improbability that it is scarcely credible."

Theistic solution - measurable design
On the other hand, the deist or theist says that God designed the universe with just the right laws of physics. Note that neither the multiverse nor the "God hypothesis" is testable. However, the "God hypothesis" is much simpler. The naturalistic explanation requires the presence of a complicated, unproved super universe that has the capacity to randomly spew out an infinite number of universes with different laws of physics. How does this hypothetical super universe know how to do this? Why would it even want to do this? Ultimately, why should there be any universe at all? None of these questions are logically explained by naturalism. Only an intelligent Being would be motivated and expected to produce any kind of universe such as what we see. If we use Occam's razor, which states that one should use the simplest logical explanation for any phenomenon, we would eliminate the super universe/multi-universe explanation in favor of the simpler God-designed universe model. The evidence for design in the universe and biology is so strong that Antony Flew, a long-time proponent of atheism, renounced his atheism in 2004 and now believes that the existence of a Creator is required to explain the universe and life in it. Likewise, Frank Tipler, Professor of the Department of Mathematics at Tulane University, and a former atheist, not only became a theist, but is now a born-again Christian because of the laws of physics.11

Who created God?
A common objection to the "God hypothesis" is the problem of how God came to be. If everything has a cause, why does God get an exception? The problem with such reasoning is that it assumes that time has always existed. In reality, time is a construct of this universe and began at the initiation of the Big Bang.12 A God who exists outside the time constraints of the universe is not subject to cause and effect. So, the idea that God has always existed and is not caused follows logically from the fact that the universe and time itself was created at the Big Bang. The Bible makes these exact claims - that God has always existed13 and that God created time,14 along with the entire universe,15 being described as an expanding universe.16 Why can't the universe be uncaused? Of course, it is possible that the universe is uncaused. However, there is a tremendous amount of evidence that contradicts that idea (see part 1). So, an atheist who claims to live by logic and evidence cannot arbitrarily assign eternity to a universe that is clearly temporal.

what's the link?

[Blake]

Martyr? Really Manny?

If anything, just look at the barrage of replies I have to produce in response to the heavy opposition created by my stance… I also have to ignore all the one-liner troll-like jabs that are interspersed amongst the sparsely located questions of legitimate worth…

Feeling outnumbered is not imagined, it is the reality of such apologetic discussions…

But of course, you wouldn’t be able to notice the obvious incongruity of your snicker from your lofty perch.

Contempt from you in these matters is expected.

yup, textbook.

[redzero]

A God who exists outside the time constraints of the universe is not subject to cause and effect. So, the idea that God has always existed and is not caused follows logically from the fact that the universe and time itself was created at the Big Bang.

So, God, who works outside of time and space, "caused" the Big Bang--a process that occurred within time and space? How can a timeless being start a process of causation?

[Phenomanul]

yup, textbook.

yeah Blake, the textbook stalker....

Like I said, your uncontrollable urge to respond to all my posts is quite flattering... a little creepy... but the affinity is noted.

[Phenomanul]

Stalin, Mao and so on didn't execute people for atheism. Hitler was a Christian.

And two wrongs don't make a right, either way.

Also, you didn't even respond to the passages I quoted. Is slavery okay? None of the Christians here have even bothered to read the passages I quoted.

See… this is why I don’t address your posts redzero… you go around making such claims without an understanding of what the Christian label represents… not everyone who slaps that label on themselves is a Christian...

Hitler was most definitely NOT a Christian…

Question… Which of these were Christians?
A. Mother Teresa
B. Billy Graham
C. Hitler

Me: Based on their lives, both A & B…
redzero: Based on my stubbornness to win meaningless internet arguments, Hitler...

WTH???

“16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. 21 Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven...”

- Matthew 7:16-21

[cool cat]

So, God, who works outside of time and space, "caused" the Big Bang--a process that occurred within time and space? How can a timeless being start a process of causation?

So you are going to limit gods power? If you create time and space why can't you work in that time and space?

[redzero]

So you are going to limit gods power? If you create time and space why can't you work in that time and space?

Why would he work in time and space if he is timeless?

[Blake]

yeah Blake, the textbook stalker....

Like I said, your uncontrollable urge to respond to all my posts is quite flattering... a little creepy... but the affinity is noted.

your urge to post specifically about me is creepy.

Are you really afraid of people responding to your posts? Do you think I'm going to get you in real life?

[redzero]

See… this is why I don’t address your posts redzero… you go around making such claims without an understanding of what the Christian label represents… not everyone who slaps that label on themselves is a Christian...

Hitler was most definitely NOT a Christian…

Question… Which of these were Christians?
A. Mother Teresa
B. Billy Graham
C. Hitler

Me: Based on their lives, both A & B…
redzero: Based on my stubbornness to win meaningless internet arguments, Hitler...

WTH???

“16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. 21 Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven...”

- Matthew 7:16-21

Do you support slavery, and killing sexuals, unruly children and nonbelievers?

[Blake]

Hitler was most definitely NOT a Christian…

Question… Which of these were Christians?
A. Mother Teresa
B. Billy Graham
C. Hitler

Me: Based on their lives, both A & B…
redzero: Based on my stubbornness to win meaningless internet arguments, Hitler...

How rich is Billy Graham?

[cool cat]

Why would he work in time and space if he is timeless?

Does it matter?

[redzero]

Does it matter?

Absolutely.

[cool cat]

Absolutely.

Why? I thought you were looking for the possibility of god not what his motivations are.

[redzero]

Why? I thought you were looking for the possibility of god not what his motivations are.

What does it have to do with motivation? You say that God is timeless, yet he is confined to working within time. That's a contradiction.

[Phenomanul]

My point stands... (ongoing for years)

The question of origins is plainly a matter of science history—not the domain of applied science... Contrary to the unilateral denials of many unbelievers, one’s worldview does indeed play heavily on one’s interpretation of scientific data, a phenomenon that is magnified in matters concerning origins, where neither repeatability, nor observation, nor measurement—the three immutable elements of the scientific method—may be employed...

Hence, when I see people hinging their disbelief in GOD solely on their interpretation of their infallible bastion of "science"... they're not really doing that on proper terms... So while many proponents of evolution and naturalistic cosmic orgin persist in claiming exclusive “scientific” status for their popularized beliefs and heap out-of-hand dismissal and derision upon all doubters... They are doing so without understanding the limits of the scientific toolset.

[cool cat]

What does it have to do with motivation? You say that God is timeless, yet he is confined to working within time. That's a contradiction.

He is not confined to working within time where did you get that idea? Again you are trying to limit his power.

[redzero]

Do you support slavery, and killing sexuals, unruly children and nonbelievers?

Answer this, Phenomanul. I responded to each of your posts directed at me, yet you haven't responded to half of my posts directed at you.

[admiralsnackbar]

Yeah so I don't know if this fits are not, but here discuss:

The newest "solution" to design in the universe is a belief in the multi-universe theory. This theory requires one to believe that there are more universes in existence than the number of all the subatomic particles that exist in our universe. Our universe just happened to be one of the few that is able to support life. Here is what a recent article from Science says about this hypothetical "multiverse" spinning off an "infinity" of other universes:

"Uncomfortable with the idea that physical parameters like lambda [cosmological constant] are simply lucky accidents, some cosmologists, including Hawking, have suggested that there have been an infinity of big bangs going off in a larger 'multiverse,' each with different values for these parameters. Only those values that are compatible with life could be observed by beings such as ourselves."9

What scientific evidence exists to support the multiverse model? None! Not only is there no evidence, the physics of our own universe requires that we will never be able to obtain any evidence about any other universe (even if it does exist). Even secular websites admit that such ideas amount to nothing more than unfalsifiable metaphysics:

"Appeals to multiple or "parallel" cosmoses or to an infinite number of cosmic "Big Bang/Crunch" oscillations as essential elements of proposed mechanisms are not acceptable in submissions due to a lack of empirical correlation and testability. Such beliefs are without hard physical evidence and must therefore be considered unfalsifiable, currently outside the methodology of scientific investigation to confirm or disprove, and therefore more mathematically theoretical and metaphysical than scientific in nature. Recent cosmological evidence also suggests insufficient mass for gravity to reverse continuing cosmic expansion. The best cosmological evidence thus far suggests the cosmos is finite rather than infinite in age."10

According to Paul Davies:

"Whether it is God, or man, who tosses the dice, turns out to depend on whether multiple universes really exist or not….If instead, the other universes are relegated to ghost worlds, we must regard our existence as a miracle of such improbability that it is scarcely credible."

Theistic solution - measurable design
On the other hand, the deist or theist says that God designed the universe with just the right laws of physics. Note that neither the multiverse nor the "God hypothesis" is testable. However, the "God hypothesis" is much simpler. The naturalistic explanation requires the presence of a complicated, unproved super universe that has the capacity to randomly spew out an infinite number of universes with different laws of physics. How does this hypothetical super universe know how to do this? Why would it even want to do this? Ultimately, why should there be any universe at all? None of these questions are logically explained by naturalism. Only an intelligent Being would be motivated and expected to produce any kind of universe such as what we see. If we use Occam's razor, which states that one should use the simplest logical explanation for any phenomenon, we would eliminate the super universe/multi-universe explanation in favor of the simpler God-designed universe model. The evidence for design in the universe and biology is so strong that Antony Flew, a long-time proponent of atheism, renounced his atheism in 2004 and now believes that the existence of a Creator is required to explain the universe and life in it. Likewise, Frank Tipler, Professor of the Department of Mathematics at Tulane University, and a former atheist, not only became a theist, but is now a born-again Christian because of the laws of physics.11

Who created God?
A common objection to the "God hypothesis" is the problem of how God came to be. If everything has a cause, why does God get an exception? The problem with such reasoning is that it assumes that time has always existed. In reality, time is a construct of this universe and began at the initiation of the Big Bang.12 A God who exists outside the time constraints of the universe is not subject to cause and effect. So, the idea that God has always existed and is not caused follows logically from the fact that the universe and time itself was created at the Big Bang. The Bible makes these exact claims - that God has always existed13 and that God created time,14 along with the entire universe,15 being described as an expanding universe.16 Why can't the universe be uncaused? Of course, it is possible that the universe is uncaused. However, there is a tremendous amount of evidence that contradicts that idea (see part 1). So, an atheist who claims to live by logic and evidence cannot arbitrarily assign eternity to a universe that is clearly temporal.

Interesting. Apparently this person is filtering multiverse theory through Leibniz' Monadology in order to make it jibe with Christian cosmological ideas. I don't necessarily agree with everything he says, but overall, I can live with it.

[Phenomanul]

How rich is Billy Graham?

Does it matter if he gives over 90% of his annual 'income' away...???

How many tangential red herrings do you have in your lunch box anyways???

[Blake]

Hence, when I see people hinging their disbelief in GOD solely on their interpretation of their infallible bastion of "science"...

who here has said that science is infallible?

Phestrawmanul!

they're not really doing that on proper terms... So while many proponents of evolution and naturalistic cosmic orgin persist in claiming exclusive “scientific” status for their popularized beliefs and heap out-of-hand dismissal and derision upon all doubters... They are doing so without understanding the limits of the scientific toolset.

Why do opponents of evolution, such as yourself, dismiss any scientific evidence that supports the theory?

[redzero]

He is not confined to working within time where did you get that idea? Again you are trying to limit his power.

You are the one who said that he was timeless, did you not?

I'm sorry, but I don't understand how a timeless being would perform time-reliant acts.

Can God also make a squared circle?

[redzero]

who here has said that science is infallible?

Phestrawmanul!




Why do opponents of evolution, such as yourself, dismiss any scientific evidence that supports the theory?

Phenomanul also tried to use absolutes to show that science is unreliable. If he actually watched the video I posted, he would understand why he should not make that mistake, but he seems to ignore my responses to him.