(burp)
What is the irrationality based on?
Blackjack has been claiming that the builders face a "moral dilemma" throughout the thread. The moral dilemma is clearly not on the builder.
The contradictions in this thread are so numerous, I don't think he knows what his point or his stance really is.
entertainment level has been pretty good.
First off, I appreciate the interest of Winehole. Sorry I couldn't respond earlier, brah. I'll try to make sure I'm able to get online at all times.
Here's the thing with this whole argument/diatribe/whatever-this-has-now-become and the reason for the disconnect -- what I believe I've finally pinpointed, at least.
What it seems most here are doing is painting all the opposition as the most vocal and adamant portion. As in most cases like this, the most visibly seen and heard are the extreme element of their faction.
This issue on a scale of 1-10 is probably a 3 in the people I've alluded to and my life. It only became a point of discussion once it became this whole ridiculous sideshow. So I can't say what it is most of them would have felt had they just been asked the question in passing one day (i.e., "What would you think if a mosque/community center were to be built near Ground Zero?"), instead they were asked once it became what it is now.
Are they all arguing that it needs to be moved or not built? Not really. I'd venture to guess some would prefer that its location change, but they don't feel that will prevent any consequence from happening -- I believe most -- if not ALL -- I've talked to believe whether this thing is built, moved or not built, there will be propaganda and pro-extremist rhetoric to be gained. I guess some could believe it's a lose-lose under the cir stance, so they might as well move it ... but I couldn't say for sure. Seems that that'd be a pretty decent possibility.
That's seemingly the disconnect. People here have been advancing the argument to the potential movement or having Park51 not built, but that's never been part of the equation. ALL involved with the people I've discussed this with are resigned to the fact that this thing will be built. They're not on the scene protesting or taking away time from their lives or families trying to figure out how to stop this from happening. Again, it's just not that important to them, myself and there are certainly more pressing issues in our world and around the world at large.
They believe Park51 was in the wrong for taking an unnecessary risk with lives -- and with the people that lost theirs memory -- and they simply can't understand why or condone their actions. You'll never be able to tell them -- and even myself -- that the building of a mosque/community center within the close proximity of Ground Zero was a decision made with the requisite sensitivity. They'll never understand why you wouldn't err on the side of caution in this particular case. I agree with them in that respect -- if the community center had sought my advice beforehand I would have told them to buy their property a little further away. Err on the side of caution and do your thing. There's no need to even leave open the possibility the sensitivities of 9-11 could come into play.
So the people I'm talking to oppose but -- by in large -- they believe it's too far down the road to believe their opposition could do much -- if any -- good, at this point. But they still fall into the opposition because they can't simply not oppose in light of their opinion/belief not mattering. It's a principle stand. They don't believe Park51 was in the "right" for building there (as in human beings and fellow Americans just using common sense), so they can't just be pro-Park51 on account of their inability to make things better with their opposing view.
I can respect their views and beliefs because I happen to agree that Park51's decision to buy and build within such proximity to Ground Zero wasn't the best thing they could have done. I just don't -- for some of the same reasons they do. Where I differ is believing what I believe should matter. Whatever I believe the best and most prudent thing to do might be, it shouldn't matter in this case.
I joked about it, but it's like my pro-choice stance: pro-choice as a rule/law, pro-life as it pertains to me (with 1-2 extreme exceptions). I believe Park51 has every right to do whatever they deem necessary or a good idea to do, so long as they've met all the requirements, which I believe they have. It doesn't matter whether I think it's the best idea or the smartest idea. As far as I'm concerned: Do it to it. Ain't my decision to make.
No one here will convince me to believe the people I've alluded to in opposition or -- that I, myself -- is somehow a bigot for believing Park51 didn't make the wisest of decisions building where they did. I've yet to here any reasoning suggested as to why they had to buy and build their property there other than: They bought and decided to build their property there. If there's something to be gained for choosing the location I -- and I'm sure the friends and family I've discussed this with -- would honestly love to know. All I've heard is the questioning of the people I've defended motives, not Park51's, which would seem to suggest tolerance only goes one way: If innocent until proven guilty is the law, why is Park51 the peaceful and good Muslim until proven otherwise and everyone in opposition a racist or bigot until proven otherwise?
They both should be given the benefit of a doubt until proven otherwise, which is the point I've tried to make all along -- you can't promote tolerance and understanding through intolerance and ignorance; that's exactly what blanket statements and generalizations are rooted in and those that make them haven't the intention of getting things "right" or the "right" things done, only that they're right in a classroom's theoretical, vacuous discussion/argument.
That's not doing what is "right," that's simply trying to win an argument for the sake of winning an argument. The kind of thing usually reserved for a college kid, the pretentious, the insecure or the out-of-touch.
That's about the best I can do to crystallize what is I've been trying to say. We'll see if it focuses the discussion more instead of having it venture further away from what this was really all about -- the semantics of morality, racism or anything else that has entered the equation, is open-ended and never-ending.
Fear, ignorance and prejudice are solid guesses, but I'm not sure that's always knowable.
You still just do not get it.
Your "good people friends" believe the builders are wrong because they are Muslim.
Your "good people friends" believe the builders are taking unnecessary risks with lives because they are Muslim.
You called anyone who said these type of people are Islamophobic or racists "lemmings".
Again, for the whatever time, if it is not a fear based on their religion, what is their fear based on?
lol Nancy's reading comprehension.
lol Blackjack's "good people friends" and their Islamophobia.
lol you're an idiot that's getting abused badly
lol not a good thread for you
lol Denial
So potential repercussions by extremists = fear of all Muslims?
So you're equating the actions of extremist to be those of all Muslims?
lol continued generalizations, Nancy.
Put simply, if there's a 1% chance something you're wanting to do could cost someone a life or dishonor any of the innocent people that lost their lives, why do you take that chance if you've got other options?
Why, Nancy? (And even I see the irony in that lol)
Do you drive to work, Blackjack? Don't you have other options?
There's a chance you could kill somebody (or be killed) every time you get into the car. Why take it if there are other options available?
Last edited by Winehole23; 09-09-2010 at 03:35 PM.
I work from home, so no, I don't.
Are you equating taking a necessary risk to live your life (as ridiculous as it sounds when talking "driving" but it technically is) with choosing to build something that's neither necessary to live your life or being forced upon you to do so?
It's analogous to what you were saying, yes. No one is forced to drive, and it's not strictly necessary to live your life.
Year in year out, driving is far more deadly than terrorism.
^^^Monkey see monkey do.
I don't see it.
To speak Robin Hood Men In Tights, if I could, if you ain't got no tolls, you ain't got no rolls.
You gotta get paid somehow and if driving to work is your only option, the risk of injury or death is a risk worth taking because you gots to eat.
Whether this community center was built in the vicinity of 9-11's wake or elsewhere had no bearing on Park51's ability to live, worship or do anything else, at least I've yet to hear otherwise.
Just discovered that yesterday. Seemed an opportune enough reply to use if for a second time.
No.
Potential repercussions by strawman extremists = fear of Islam.
so much fail in this post.
Including the continued hypocrisy of you name calling upon getting butthurt.
You're just flat out an idiot.
Exactly how far away from Ground Zero would be good enough to ease your fear of the "extremists"?
You'll get a legitimate response when you decide to answer any of the questions I've asked, Nancy.
Until then:
lol "strawman"
lol butthurt lemming
lol Why?
Post the question(s) right now.
This is the second time I've directly told you to post the question(s).
I've posted them on multiple occasions. To pull a good ol' Winehole, if they were that important you could go back a page or two.
But how 'bout just the last one:
What possible reason (other than they did) would this community center have to buy and build their project there when there are supposedly over 100 mosques in the New York state area, plenty of spaces to buy and rent available and a mosque stands only 4 blocks from where the World Trade Center once stood?
If they are that important to you, you should have no problem posting them again.
I have absolutely no idea why they would build a Muslim community center where they did.But how 'bout just the last one:
What possible reason (other than they did) would this community center have to buy and build their project there when there are supposedly over 100 mosques in the New York state area, plenty of spaces to buy and rent available and a mosque stands only 4 blocks from where the World Trade Center once stood?
Any more questions?
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