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  1. #526
    The Timeless One Leetonidas's Avatar
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    With such a great possibility... and yet here we are... seemingly alone...

    Drake's equation is flawed in the supposition that he has actually factored in all the variables which make life viable on this planet into account... It's too simplistic in it's approach... especially considering that the vastness of our Universe is actually quite finite.
    Wrong

  2. #527
    Believe. admiralsnackbar's Avatar
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    Yes... best available translation at the time. Other translations have surged which try to incorporate all of the available resources to solidify the meaning of the manuscripts from which the Biblical canon was derived.
    If presented with some Plato and my trusty Liddell&Scott, I could come up with a grammatically cohesive and defensible translation that would still significantly differ semantically from any other translation of the same work -- which is to say that when you're talking about dead languages, the ability to describe a translation as accurate is more poetic than scientific.

    None of us will ever understand the NT or the Phaedo as those works' contemporaries did, not only because our notion of the language is filtered through millenia of intentional and unintentional scholarly prevarication and semantic drift, but because we ourselves as readers/translators have a completely different vantage from which we interpret things. Worse yet, one of the best tools for homing in on a word's meaning (looking at how several contemporaries used a word or phrase and searching for semantic convergences between them) tends to break down in the case of figurative language like Plato and Jesus used. In such cases, Derrida's depressing statement that "every decoding is an encoding" seems to frankly be unavoidable. The most one can do by way of remedy is to read every translation of the NT to try to get a meta-interpretation that makes sense to her.

    Anyway, I'm sure you'll simply interpret this as another effort to break your balls, but I think it's a philosophically interesting situation for people of faith.

  3. #528
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    For someone so smart... how could you misconstrue the word "conduit"...??

    The proper equation should have been:

    His existence doesn't depend on our faith... our Salvation does...
    Then it becomes:

    Q. How do you know God exists?

    A. God exists because God allows us Salvation (through faith in Him).

    Still a circular argument, although I don't think my earlier paraphrasing really was a misconstrual of "conduit".

    Even this re-parsing does not escape the circular reasoning required to "prove" God exists.

    If believing as you do makes you happy, that is a good thing in my book, and more power to you.

    One has to admit, in the end, however, that the heart of faith is an illogical circular argument.

    (shrugs)

    That doesn't mean that faith is a bad thing, merely illogical.

    Faith becomes a bad thing when it is used to rationalize unethical behavior "in the name of God", but is not, in and of itself, bad.

  4. #529
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    Faith by definition is illogical.

  5. #530
    Believe. admiralsnackbar's Avatar
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    Faith by definition is illogical.
    As is humanity... so we got that going for us

  6. #531
    Ain't over 'till its over MaNuMaNiAc's Avatar
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    I don't understand why people keep having this discussion. Its endless. How can one expect to change the mind of a person that believes in something simply because they want to believe in it? I mean, that is what we're talking about, isn't it? Faith is ultimately believing without proof. So how exactly do people think they can prove them wrong? or more importantly, why?

  7. #532
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    God loves us so much he allows evil to exist?

    Why allow evil in the first place, when it would be just as easy to create a universe free of evil?
    HE didn't make us drones... we indulged ourselves in evil at our choosing not His...

    like hot and cold... one could describe 'evil' as being devoid of GOD... so naturally it would follow that if He gave us the choice to choose... rejection is inherently and evil act.

    GOD will eventually restore balance by vanquishing evil forever...
    That doesnt' really answer my question.

    Why create evil in the first place? Surely the Creator could have simply ordered the universe so that evil was not possible?

    If God created everything, then God created evil.

    If God did not create evil, then who did?

  8. #533
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    I don't understand why people keep having this discussion. Its endless. How can one expect to change the mind of a person that believes in something simply because they want to believe in it? I mean, that is what we're talking about, isn't it? Faith is ultimately believing without proof. So how exactly do people think they can prove them wrong? or more importantly, why?
    I personally like to know how others think.

    It is always interesting. I don't think I will sway anybody to my "side", nor is it my intention to do so.

    I also like people to be honest about what they are saying. As I stated a few posts earlier, I am fine with faith, as long as you are honest with yourself and others about the implications, logical or otherwise.

    There is a guy I know tangentally who is 100% convinced that the world will end as "revealed in Revelations" on May 21, 2011.

    I have tried to get him to promise that he will tell me what is going through his head if that doesn't happen. The dead will rise up and all that is pretty unambigious. If it doesn't happen what will his excuse be? Will he think of one, or abandon the idea altogether as being patently false?

    I guess we'll get to see what happens when one's beliefs can be very provably false. Either he will ascend to Heaven on that day, and I will remain on the earth for another few months before the world literally melts, or not.

    Popcorn anyone?

  9. #534
    right about pizzagate Blake's Avatar
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    I don't understand why people keep having this discussion. Its endless. How can one expect to change the mind of a person that believes in something simply because they want to believe in it? I mean, that is what we're talking about, isn't it? Faith is ultimately believing without proof. So how exactly do people think they can prove them wrong? or more importantly, why?
    I like philosophical discussions. I don't care about changing someone else's mind.

    Unfortunately, some posters get severely ass hurt when someone points out the flaws in their arguments and take it personal.

    It's a shame.

  10. #535
    Corpus Christi Spurs Fan Phenomanul's Avatar
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    Assumption fail.

    I just think it's funny when you whine about others while simultaneously engaging in the same act you are whining about.


    Yes…. because shouting profanities in the largest of fonts equals the use of yellow color to denote when scripture is being quoted… your stubborn idiocy knows no bounds. You must really hate conceding any sort of ground even when it’s obvious your observations are stupid. But go ahead… keep using your bullish rhetoric (‘assumption fail’, butthurt, etc…)… hey… if it helps you believe you hold the upper hand on ‘discourse’ be my guest… I mean seriously, I answer your question, and then you demand that it be answered again...

    The rest of your post is going straight to my ignore bin.

    Throw a parade, what do I care?

  11. #536
    Corpus Christi Spurs Fan Phenomanul's Avatar
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    That doesnt' really answer my question.

    Why create evil in the first place? Surely the Creator could have simply ordered the universe so that evil was not possible?

    If God created everything, then God created evil.

    If God did not create evil, then who did?
    The association that free will always leads to evil is erroneous... Satan happened to go down that route because he was greater than all of the angels in Heaven... He had/has god-like powers too... He was ultimately kicked out of Heaven for introducing evil into that realm though...

    GOD then creates the Universe and man... It was "good" and perfect. Free of evil. Satan takes this opportunity to corrupt GOD's creation by subsequently introducing evil here as well... in a twist of ironic humiliation GOD used man to defeat Satan... The rest is history...

    Satan knows he's buying his time... in a proverbial sense, he knows his sentence has been issued... and He is going down kicking and screaming... trying to inflict as much damage as he can before his authority is completely stripped away...

    Why did GOD just not vanquish Satan immediately? I don't know. Either way it wasn't GOD that created evil as you assert...
    Last edited by Phenomanul; 09-09-2010 at 01:20 PM.

  12. #537
    Corpus Christi Spurs Fan Phenomanul's Avatar
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    How is it then that by most conventional theories we can approximate the total mass and energy of the universe? It it were infinite, such an exercise would be pointless. That's why the search for dark energy and dark matter are some of the leading topics in astrophysics and cosmology today... those en ies allow science to fill the gap seamlessly....

    The quantum fluctuation theory, the string theory, the inflationary model, etc... all use the universe's mass and it's energy density as a referece point for the mathematical expressions which govern the theories...

    I would agree that some theories out there are hinged on the premise that the universe is infinite, but not the prevailing ones...

  13. #538
    Long, Dark Blues redzero's Avatar
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    The law is forever binding to those who don't believe but is superceded by GOD's grace to those that do...
    That doesn't make sense. Explain.

    How is it forever binding? Which parts are forever binding?

  14. #539
    Long, Dark Blues redzero's Avatar
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    It is meaningless in the context of information... replete full of data... but it contains no information of worth.
    How do you know? The odds of attaining that particular information are still astronomically high, and yet it is still attained.

    Genetic sequences are comprised of more than the physical molecules which define their structures, they convey information.
    Okay. And?

    Hence when we question the odds of forming sequences that actually carry genetic worth it's because everyone is being led to believe that random haphazard processes were at play and that the sequences created just happened to make genetic sense.
    Do you know that genetic sequences would not have been formed any other way? No, you do not. The example still stands, because you are looking at results after the fact and comparing them to random chance. The likelihood of picking 13 spades from a deck at random is no different from the likelihood of picking 13 other cards.

    That the information itself is a byproduct of chance as well
    And if the universe formed in any other way, the chances would have been just as low. To say that it was impossible for something to have occurred after the fact is foolish, because we know it did. We are here. It happened.

  15. #540
    right about pizzagate Blake's Avatar
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    I answer your question, and then you demand that it be answered again...
    Huh? No, you never did.

    Where do you answer if the King James was the ordained word of God?

    I don't see any yes or no.

    The rest of your post is going straight to my ignore bin.

    Throw a parade, what do I care?
    It's sad that you would rather discuss me than the content.

    I point out the hypocrisy of how you use the King James version to make your point but dismiss the King James version when I make mine.

    You then get severely ass hurt and flip the ignore switch.

    You're proven to be a butthurt, whining idiot in yet another thread.

    Well done.

  16. #541
    Long, Dark Blues redzero's Avatar
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    I still haven't gotten an explanation of why the Old Testament law would be binding to non-believers. It doesn't make sense at all.

    Would non-believers have to keep slaves and kill their unruly children? Are non-believers the only ones who have to follow the ten commandments? Is there one set of laws to follow for non-believers and one set for believers?

  17. #542
    right about pizzagate Blake's Avatar
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    The association that free will always leads to evil is erroneous... Satan happened to go down that route because he was greater than all of the angels in Heaven... He had/has god-like powers too... He was ultimately kicked out of Heaven for introducing evil into that realm though...

    GOD then creates the Universe and man... It was "good" and perfect. Free of evil. Satan takes this opportunity to corrupt GOD's creation by subsequently introducing evil here as well... in a twist of ironic humiliation GOD used man to defeat Satan... The rest is history...

    Satan knows he's buying his time... in a proverbial sense, he knows his sentence has been issued... and He is going down kicking and screaming... trying to inflict as much damage as he can before his authority is completely stripped away...

    Why did GOD just not vanquish Satan immediately? I don't know. Either way it wasn't GOD that created evil as you assert...
    So then we agree that Satan has a seriously low I.Q. Seriously, he is just not smart.

  18. #543
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Why create evil in the first place? Surely the Creator could have simply ordered the universe so that evil was not possible?

    If God created everything, then God created evil.

    If God did not create evil, then who did?
    The association that free will always leads to evil is erroneous... Satan happened to go down that route because he was greater than all of the angels in Heaven... He had/has god-like powers too... He was ultimately kicked out of Heaven for introducing evil into that realm though...

    GOD then creates the Universe and man... It was "good" and perfect. Free of evil. Satan takes this opportunity to corrupt GOD's creation by subsequently introducing evil here as well... in a twist of ironic humiliation GOD used man to defeat Satan... The rest is history...

    Satan knows he's buying his time... in a proverbial sense, he knows his sentence has been issued... and He is going down kicking and screaming... trying to inflict as much damage as he can before his authority is completely stripped away...

    Why did GOD just not vanquish Satan immediately? I don't know. Either way it wasn't GOD that created evil as you assert...
    That still does not answer the question. I said nothing of free will, nor of Satan, nor did I imply that free will will always lead to evil. It does not. Creating free will though, creates the conditions necessary for evil, something an omnipotent Creator would surely realize, as my fallible human logic can easily conceive of this concept.

    God created everything that exists. (A)

    Evil exists. (B)

    Therefore, God created evil. (A + B)

    Logically sound. The only way you can disprove the statement "God created evil" is if you disprove "God created everythign that exists" or "Evil exists". Do you accept these two statements as being true?

    We can only logically conclude that God created evil. Even if you don't fully accept that, then you have to at the very least admit that He created the conditions under which evil is possible. If you can do neither then you do not fully understand the implications of your own faith.

    Both questions remain unanswered.

    Why did God create evil?
    and/or
    Why did God create a universe in which evil is possible?

  19. #544
    Saytowns Fawtbox King lebomb's Avatar
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    Why did God create a universe in which evil is possible?

    Because he is GOD and he felt like it. *shrugs*

  20. #545
    RRRAAAHHH
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    Because he is GOD and he felt like it. *shrugs*
    Is that you John Wayne? Is this me?

  21. #546
    silverblk mystix
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    I don't understand why people keep having this discussion. Its endless. How can one expect to change the mind of a person that believes in something simply because they want to believe in it? I mean, that is what we're talking about, isn't it? Faith is ultimately believing without proof. So how exactly do people think they can prove them wrong? or more importantly, why?
    Never try to teach a pig to sing.

    It will only frustrate you and really irritate the pig.

  22. #547
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    The most irritating thing about reading Phenomanul's posts on this subject is how he claims to know everything on the subject. Dude is the only person on earth who has it figured all out and is 100% sure he has it right.

  23. #548
    Go to baselinebums.com NASpurs's Avatar
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    The most irritating thing about reading Phenomanul's posts on this subject is how he claims to know everything on the subject. Dude is the only person on earth who has it figured all out and is 100% sure he has it right.
    I get that feeling from everyone who's posted in this thread yet it ultimately comes down to nobody knows .

  24. #549
    Corpus Christi Spurs Fan Phenomanul's Avatar
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    The most irritating thing about reading Phenomanul's posts on this subject is how he claims to know everything on the subject. Dude is the only person on earth who has it figured all out and is 100% sure he has it right.
    hyperbole much?

    Like I said, you're the king of the double-standard on this matter... I don't know everything and never claimed as much. Assuming intellectual high-ground is the reference basis for those on your camp who have postulated a priori that belief in GOD makes those who believe intellectually inferior... you and most others here have stated as much on numerous occasions and implied it countless of other times... your outright dismissiveness towards anything we've said (or could say) to defend our beliefs says it all...

    but it's not like your persecuting our belief structure or anything...

  25. #550
    right about pizzagate Blake's Avatar
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    your outright dismissiveness towards anything we've said (or could say) to defend our beliefs says it all...
    Even so... to those demanding proof... it's all around you
    not asking you to defend your beliefs........just show your proof.

    Bible verses are not proof.

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