A most fortunate banana seat.
LMAO troll fest.
I haven't had this much fun since the last time I walked by a middle school.
And what were you doing at that middle school?
Checking assholes with Cully.
are you sending those assholes to the tree of woe
Kobe/finally understandin' it/under a minute. Artest/takin' out the scapel/goin' to work.
Shaved.
Sounds like some of you guys are going to be pricking some asses.
I'm in.
Did you check Koolaid's? His asshole should be as wide as the ocean. I only ask because I need to see if he delivered the package that we smuggled in his ass
Just when we thought you couldn't be any more of a got, you go and outdo yourself. Bravo.dude that sounds like a great deal..thanks for offering but no thanks my man...I don't need anymore right now...come back in 3 yrs though I may want to buy some from you then. You a dam good salesman though...I imagine you started out throwing newspapers in your neighborhood. Anyways before you leave just wanted to mention that it looks as if your pants have a large hole in the back...might want to get that checked out before ass really starts hanging out...
So which Chuck E. Cheese did pops rent in Vegas for your birthday?
How many of the Bulls games were won because Jordan was Jordan in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or early 4th quarters and didn't need to hit a game winner to seal it?
I guess if you score 8 points in the final three minutes it counts more than 8 points at the beginning of the 4th or the end of the half to give your team enough of a lead that they don't need a prayer at the horn to go through.
Jordan won games. Period. He didn't care what quarter it was -- if he saw a team was weak, he would stick a dagger through their heart and end it right then and there. He didn't need the theatrics at the end because he just wanted to destroy the other team. In fact, I bet Jordan hated games where he had to nail a game winner, because there was a chance his team would lose. I don't think he would enjoy that prospect. He would have preferred to crush his opponent and walk away. I suspect that every single digit win the Bulls ever ac ulated bothered Jordan a little bit -- because he wanted his team to dominate EVERY game.
I emphasize this point all the time with these Kobe fan s, but they seem to be the only ones on earth who believe that 2 points scored in the 4th quarter counts more than 2 points scored in the 1st.
6/6 > 5/75/7 > 6/24...
I'll let you figure out what the 5/7 represents...
I don't disagree with your overall point about Jordan, even if it's a bit exaggerated. I don't think Jordan "hated" games that were close and needed a game winner as long as his team won the game. I'm sure he didn't "hate" the win over Cleveland where he hit that running jumper over Craig Ehlo. You bet he hated that? You're exaggerating but again your overall point isn't a poor one. For a lot of his career, Jordan simply dominated games and didn't need spectacular finishes to pull out wins. I could go with that.
I do disagree with your sentiment about the 8 points in the beginning of the fourth quarter versus 8 points in the final three minutes of a close game. By a statistical measure, of course they count the same. 8 points is 8 points. But I think it's naive to think they mean the same. In a close game, late in the fourth quarter, when defenses tighten, the pressure of the moment rises, and when the game is most overtly on the line, those 8 points in the final three minutes of a close game absolutely mean more than 8 points at any point earlier in the game. Not by a statistical measure, but by quite a few intangible ones. To think they don't really is naive. That's why the idea of being "clutch" is such a discussed topic when evaluating the great players. That's a distinction often made in player evaluations.
Well, I'd say in the playoffs it's a little different than the regular season. I doubt Jordan would have been enthralled to hit a game winner over a lottery team 10 games into the season if he/his team had played poorly all night and didn't deserve a win. But point taken.
Perhaps, but again, how can you say that 8 points in a row (just a random number) with 9:00 to play in the 4th Quarter doesn't win the game? That takes a 4 point 2 possession lead to a 12 point 4 possession game, provided the other team doesn't have McGrady or Reggie Miller.I do disagree with your sentiment about the 8 points in the beginning of the fourth quarter versus 8 points in the final three minutes of a close game. By a statistical measure, of course they count the same. 8 points is 8 points. But I think it's naive to think they mean the same. In a close game, late in the fourth quarter, when defenses tighten, the pressure of the moment rises, and when the game is most overtly on the line, those 8 points in the final three minutes of a close game absolutely mean more than 8 points at any point earlier in the game. Not by a statistical measure, but by quite a few intangible ones. To think they don't really is naive. That's why the idea of being "clutch" is such a discussed topic when evaluating the great players. That's a distinction often made in player evaluations.It can take a game that's very much seesawing in doubt, and up for grabs, and completely end the other team's momentum and desire, particularly if it's done in a nasty, break down the defense so that they're pointing fingers at each other, way. A 7 point relatively close affair balloons to 15, and the other team's will is smashed.
Jordan lost one playoff series after 1992. To me, that says more about his ability to close than anything else. He had a habit of burying teams long before the clock said 0:00. I completely agree with you about the waning moments being the most difficult, but I think analysts put too much emphasis on the last shot of the game, because that's all it is -- one shot. Sure, it's dramatic and that's why they report on it, but it's also partially a statistic based on hype as much as substance. And as we all know, Kobe doesn't have a great shooting percentage when taking game winners, either.
Points are points, it's when they occur and what context they are in is what makes them more relevant or impactful. Discounting this is assinine.
MJ had daggers and put teams away early in the 3rd so he can chill in the 4th. All great teams have this luxury.
If a player scores 8 points in the last few minutes of the game that means something. When you look at the fact that the player started taking every single one of his team's shots in the last few minutes of the game and ended up 3 of 11 you realize that it doesn't mean so much.
There were many times that Kobe would take three ill-advised shots, hit one and the announcer falls all over himself talking about Kobe's "killer instinct". I guess Laker fans don't actually watch as much Laker basketball as they claim to.
Baby, baby, baby, ohDuncan is hands down number three PF behind Malone and Barkley. Never before has a player insisted so much on being categorized on what position he plays. Duncan and his supporters knew he would be waaaaaay down the list as a center, so they used the media to hijack the PF position, and he's not even the best at that position. The guy has so many shortcomings it's pathetic. Can't go back to back, (bet his wife hates that as well
Baby, baby, baby, nooo
ii think u jus need somebody 2 luv
Duncan is hands down number three PF behind Malone and Barkley. Never before has a player insisted so much on being categorized on what position he plays. Duncan and his supporters knew he would be waaaaaay down the list as a center, so they used the media to hijack the PF position, and he's not even the best at that position. The guy has so many shortcomings it's pathetic. Can't go back to back, (bet his wife hates that as well
Or you could watch a lot of Lakers games where Kobe would actually pass the ball to teammates late in games and watch them fail to come through time after time and then you realize as selfish as it appears, you'd still rather watch Kobe go into chuck mode with the game on the line than watching Farmar or Shannon Brown or Artest building houses along the side of the backboard.
Kobe is and pretty much always has been a selfish and volume scorer. Doesn't mean there isn't good reason for it or that he's not a clutch shooter.
Yeah, all the way down at #4, at worst, considering that many have him rated as a top 10 player of all-time already. But since Shaq has fallen off so much, he'd probably be ranked ahead, at #3. Horrible.
Wasn't there a stat passed around the forums recently that showed that Kobe was not even in the top 10 in the NBA in shooting percentage in crunch time? He was 12th or 16th, way behind Manu and Wade who were both in the top 10.
Sorry, I only respond to trolls once.Duncan is right behind Shaq as far as falling off. Duncan just got skunked and hasn't been relevant for years.
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At the same time, a player can score 8 straight points early in the 4th quarter to get the game in hand, and the opposing team can still turn the tide and win the game. The thing about the final minutes and final possessions of the fourth quarter of a close game, going on a scoring spurt leads determining the outcome of the game at a greater percentage than going on a scoring spurt earlier in the game, even when it looks like it's what will make the difference in the game. Taking a game "that's very much seesawing in doubt" and "completely end the other team's momentum and desire" at that moment doesn't finish them all the time. You do that at the beginning of the fourth quarter, and the opposing team has maybe 7-8 minutes plus to get that momentum back, to make their own run, to win the game. Do it in the final minutes of that game, more times than doing it earlier, there's not enough time for the opposing team to turn the tide of the game.Perhaps, but again, how can you say that 8 points in a row (just a random number) with 9:00 to play in the 4th Quarter doesn't win the game? That takes a 4 point 2 possession lead to a 12 point 4 possession game, provided the other team doesn't have McGrady or Reggie Miller.
We can make other arguments about different things during the game. A blown call, a half court chuck that goes in at the end of the half, key players fouling out, what have you. At any point in the game, something can be a deciding factor in the outcome. The game as a whole has plenty of moments that you can look at in that fashion. But, in the final minutes of a close game, everything is heightened, every possession is more important, every shot carries way more value, every free throw and every point becomes more and more critical in determining the outcome of the game. What good is a player who is 10-for-10 from the field shooting and missing the last shot he takes and his team loses by 1 point? What does it matter if a player is 0-for-10 from the field but he hits the game winning three point shot?
Points are points. But context is huge. Are Corey Maggette's 20 ppg on Golden State more impressive than Paul Pierce's 18 points for the Celtics. More to the point, was Carlos Boozer's 19.7 ppg on 53% FG shooting in last season's playoffs more impressive than Pau Gasol's 19.6 ppg on 54% FG shooting in the playoffs? Essentially the same numbers. But are they really the "same?" The points "count" the same. But are they really the same?
I didn't really have a problem with what you said about Jordan other than you exaggerated a little bit. Jordan was unbelievable in his career. He was as dominant a player as the game has ever seen. He dominated games where his team didn't have to make things close at the end of the game. He also hit big shots. He also made great scoring runs late in games. But what some people criticize Kobe for chucking and getting selective praise happened with Jordan a decade earlier. I love going back to game 6 of the 1996 NBA Finals. Would Kobe critics give the same criticism of Jordan in his final three years with the Bulls as being a pretty huge and inefficient chucker?Jordan lost one playoff series after 1992. To me, that says more about his ability to close than anything else. He had a habit of burying teams long before the clock said 0:00. I completely agree with you about the waning moments being the most difficult, but I think analysts put too much emphasis on the last shot of the game, because that's all it is -- one shot. Sure, it's dramatic and that's why they report on it, but it's also partially a statistic based on hype as much as substance. And as we all know, Kobe doesn't have a great shooting percentage when taking game winners, either.
Very few players have great shooting percentages when taking game winning shots. I don't know where to find them, but I'd love to see Jordan's percentage taking game winning shots. I'd be willing to bet it's far below 50%. It's rare to find a high percentage for game winning shots from any players, even the HOFers. It's the best defended shot of the game. It's generally the toughest shot in the game. I'd look at number of game winning shots taken along with the percentage. Because you know what, a lot of times, a player who has a higher percentage with those shots don't take that many because if it's too well defended, they're going to pass it. Kobe doesn't care what defense is on him when he's determined to shoot the game winner. He'll shoot a 30 foot fade-away with three defenders draping on him because he's not scared of taking the shot and missing. To me, that's just as telling as his shooting percentage taking those shots. It might be stupid. But everyone knows for a fact that Kobe isn't scared of the moment and isn't scared to fail.
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