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LOL.
NBA MVP (1958, '61, '62, '63, '65)
If a guy with Five MVPs and 11 rings isn't top 20 then this thread should be closed down.
IMO a top 10 is too tough ro construct. It used to be easy some 20-30 years ago. Also, I see a lot of duplications in top 10 lists, (Kobe sticky, recent page) so I am curious what everyone's 20 list would be.
Here's a post I made listing the NBA top 50 players at 50 years in league entry order, and how I created my list.
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/show...47#post4646347
Here's my top 20, no order yet. Asterisks * designate certain top 10.
Edit October 5, 1:34 PM. There are reasons why Tim Duncan, Kobe Bryant, and Bill Russell are omitted from "my" list. Read the thread and you will see why. I had to post this edit because many are commenting about their omission and not reading the thread, thanks.
Elgin Baylor 1958-59
Wilt Chamberlain 1959-60 *
Jerry West 1960-61
Oscar Robertson 1960-61
John Havlicek 1962-63
Jerry Lucas 1963-64
Willis Reed 1964-65
Walt Frazier 1967-68
Elvin Hayes 1968-69
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 1969-70 *
Julius Erving 1971-72
George Gervin 1972-73
Moses Malone 1974-75
Larry Bird 1979-80 *
Magic Johnson 1979-80 *
Michael Jordan 1984-85 *
Hakeem Olajuwon 1984-85
Patrick Ewing 1985-86
Karl Malone 1985-86
Shaquille O'Neal 1992-93
I deliberately omitted Bill Russell. You guys have him overrated IMO. He wasn't viewed as top of the line material way back when he played, the other superstars of his era were viewed more kindly. Besides, he had stacked teams, loaded with 8 other hall of famers including 4 on the Top 50 NBA at 50 list. Lebron and Kobe could only wish they had as stacked a team as Russell did.
I didn't include Tim or Kobe because the NBA list needs updating. I could replace Hayes and Frazier with Tim and Kobe because I feel they are top 20 material and I believe better than those two players. Top 10? Hard for me to say, maybe not for you. I am also not certain if I would place Hakeem or Shaq in a final top 10, but that's me.
Ok, let's see your lists! Thanks.
Last edited by Daddy_Of_All_Trolls; 10-05-2010 at 01:34 PM.
LOL.
NBA MVP (1958, '61, '62, '63, '65)
If a guy with Five MVPs and 11 rings isn't top 20 then this thread should be closed down.
It's my opinion, what's yours? As I said, I did it for a reason. Do all the guys below belong on a top 20 with all those rings? Russell had help, and plenty of it.
Most NBA Championships Won
Minimum one game played in playoffs.
Rank Player Team(s) First Last Count
1 Bill Russell* BOS 1957 1969 11
2 Sam Jones* BOS 1959 1969 10
3 John Havlicek* BOS 1963 1976 8
Tom Heinsohn* BOS 1957 1965 8
K.C. Jones* BOS 1959 1966 8
Tom Sanders BOS 1961 1969 8
7 Robert Horry HOU/LAL/SAS 1994 2007 7
Frank Ramsey* BOS 1957 1964 7
Automatic fail for omitting Tim Duncan, yet including Karl Malone.
Did you read the post carefully? I stopped with the NBA top 50 at 50 years because that list needs updating. I accounted for Tim and Kobe's inclusion if I consider them and only them for the players not yet on the badly needed updated list.
I know you acknowledge not including them, but I'm not sure why you didn't include Duncan and Kobe as even if they retired today, I'd put both easily in the top 20.
Roughly in order, although on any given day I might change a couple of the rankings...
1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Magic Johnson
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5. Larry Bird
6. Hakeem Olajuwon
7a. Tim Duncan - still haven't decided between these two, greater dominance v. consistency
7b. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Bill Russell - I don't rank him as highly as some but I can't leave him off completely
10. Kobe Bryant - has the chance to move up several spots
11. Oscar Robertson - there was a time recently I had him much higher, I've recently changed my opinion
12. Moses Malone
13a. Kevin Garnett - still debate somewhat between the two
13b. Charles Barkley
15. Karl Malone
16. Willis Reed
17. John Havlicek
18. Isiah Thomas - homer in me, he's borderline 20
19. Jerry West
20. Julius Erving
Just missed: Elgin Baylor and Clyde Frazier
I was also tempted to include LeBron. He probably already cracks the top 20, but I'll wait until he finishes 10 full seasons.
I didn't include them in my top 20 because I stopped at the end of the top 50 NBA players at 50 years list. This was a huge effort for me because I saw most of the top 50 play. Also, in fairness, I don't want to have expend the effort to rank KG, Dirk, and others including LeBron and Wade who certainly are top 20 material candidates. My other concern is the duplication I see here in other lists, so everyone's 11-20 has me curious. Russell probably is top 20, I took him out only to make a point.
Thanks for your list!
I'd like to hear your argument for guys like Patrick Ewing, George Gervin, and Elvin Hayes over Isiah. Isiah is borderline top 20, but I think wherever you put him, he belongs ahead of those three.
Well, it's hard to compare players as I said, this list took awhile and I wanted to make a few more threads to precede it. Also, comparing centers to guards is tough.
Ok, to answer your question. If you compare Hakeem to Ewing, stats are close. If Knicks win in 1994, maybe Hakeem's stock drops. Maybe Ewing's stock rises. Ewing just got stuck with the crummy Knicks. Also, Bird, Magic, Isiaih and co., Malone, Barkley, and MJ were his other rivals both on court and and on a top list. I added Gervin and Hayes because of their offensive stats. Like Karl Malone's, they have to be worth something. You can see where this is going though. a top 20 will be hard in 10 years. A lot of top 10 players from 30 years ago have fallen off. So will some current players on people's top 10 lists
I was gonna respond but then I realized what you wrote about Russell then I just started shaking my head.
Do you know how many quotes you can find from players and coaches from the era that makes this statement completely invalid?He wasn't viewed as top of the line material way back when he played
OP
Some of the guys in your list also played with stacked teams
Teams that stacked !!!!!!
Hey, this is my opinion, I am just soliciting yours. Give it if you want.
I was around back then. Were you? A sample top 10 list in 1970 might look like this:
1) Wilt
2) Robertson
3) Baylor
4) West
5) Pettet
6) Cousy
7) Greer
8) Mikan
9) Russell
10 Bellamy
In that era, offense was looked on as a BIG deal, at least by the reporters. Boston had defense figured out, but most didn't. Russell's stock rose after he left the game. I am trying to make a point, and that is you see his 11 rings, call him the leader, and rank him way too high. Ben Wallace could have dominated as Bill did just as easily. Who replaces Bird or Magic past or present? No one.
Yep, and a lot of players with 0 or 1 ring. They ran into stacked teams. Love your gif of Sasha flopping!
he should have played for Miami in all honesty.
Top 6
1. Jordan
2. Russell
3. Wilt
4. Kareem
5. Bird
6. Magic
Thanks, another vote from someone who is from my generation. We saw these guys play and followed the NBA back then. That counts for something!
I don't know. You're making judgment calls on things that didn't happen. "If" Ewing won in 1994. He didn't. And then you mention how he had to compete with the likes of Bird, Magic, Michael, Barkley, Malone, and Isiah. Exactly. Isiah led a team to back-to-back les against the likes of Magic, Bird, and Michael.
Gervin's a tough call. You can't forsake winning, and winning it all, and winning it all multiple times. Sure, championships are a team accomplishment, but if we don't take them into consideration, then Wilt was better than Jordan or Barkley better than Magic. Your opinion is your opinion, but I don't quite buy it. Saying "offensive stats" have to count for something could very well mean Dirk should go down as greater than Tim Duncan, and think how silly that sounds. And if they get in because "offensive stats" you should drop someone from your top 20 for Bob Pet .
As for Hayes, he wasn't that offensively prolific beyond his first couple seasons, especially considering the era he played in and his size and athleticism. Plus, he was a big man who shot 45% from the field for his career. Offensively, while he was a really great player, does his "offensive stats" really stand out among the greats of the greats?
No white man should ever get the nod over Kobe... Period
lol true, nothing funnier than Lakerfan acting like Kobe is some kind of hood black guy. He and Lebron are giant oreos.
first off I'm not your brah...I'm your uncle and you're my nephew...
Where the big homie grew up is irrelevant...now what counts is where he's committing these atrocious acts of male rape...in front of camera's and thousands of people each year....
Yeah, well, it still is my list. I left Stockton out, look at his offense, at least in assists. Drexler was an offensive beast I omitted. Barkley was a tough cut. Dominique Wilkins had offense but he didn't make the top 50 list. Wes Unseld deserves consideration. I don't want to try to rank anyone not on the top 50 at 50 list, but do so after the list because I know many here want to put Tim and maybe Kobe on their top 10. I want to see that NBA top 50 at 50 updated. I trust that, not random top 10 lists by posters on sports boards.
See my point here is to see who people place 11-20, because I see more or less the same top 10 list from everyone. If people put Ewing on it, then they think as I do. If they don't, they don't. I see Connie Hawkins on Philadelphia Chamberlain's list. He was a phenominal player, but not on the NBA top 50 at 50. That's ok, it's his list.
I have no problem people put recent players like LeBron or Wade on a top 20. They are headed into that domain. And they will bump someone off, but who?
But that's precisely why your reasoning was contradictory. If guys like Gervin and Hayes made your list because "their offense had to count for something," you could use that same argument for guys like Pet or Barkley or Drexler. Why in their cases did their "offensive stats" not count for something or were not worth something? See where I'm going with that?
If that's your argument, use for other players who similarly had prolific offensive stats. If not, then that's not the reason why you included Hayes and Gervin in your top 20. So what is the real reason? That's all I'm asking. I'm not asking you to change your opinion. I'm asking you the reason. If that's your reason, it just seems like poor logic, seeing how you left out guys like Barkley and Pet .
I will only comment on the players I have seen play... Meaning since the 1996 NBA Finals...
Karl Malone
Michael Jordan
Shaquile O'Neil
Dirk Nowitzki
Kevin Garnett
Tim Duncan
Kobe Bryant
Jason Kidd
Chris Webber
Tracy McGrady
Allen Iverson
LeBron James
Dwayne Wade
Shawn Kemp
Reggie Miller
Kevin Durant
Glenn Rice
Alonzo Mourning
Larry Johnson
John Stockton
Well, to be honest, I tried several methods sorting my top 20. I explained in the link how I created the list, so you can see my first top 20, it's the first 20 players on the top 50 list in order they joined pro ball. then I went down the list and if I thought the player now under consideration was better than any player on the list, I made a replacement. Walt Frazier stayed on for several reasons. He was a defensive beast, passed for assists, was clutch, could hit free throws, great at steals, double teams, and a team leader. To me, he's better than Isiaih was.
Mostly it was judgement. Also, a factor I used was whether the player was ever considered top 10 and could still be argued as such a player. This favors older players but it had an influence. So, if newer players couldn't be top 10, that probably did hurt them a bit, but they can fight it out with other players who weren't top 10, or didn't stay there long.
Theoretically, a top 10 should have players in positions representing what's on the court. 2 centers, 4 forwards, 4 guards. My top 20 list has 5 guards. Ideally it would have 8. It should have 4 centers, mine has 7 pure centers.
Yeah, I know this is all confusing. You can't imagine how hard it was for me to make it in the first place! Bottom line is we know who the top 50 players are through 1996. We have an idea what 15 players should be added next year, NBA top 65 at 65.
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