Interesting argument here considering y'all are reinventing the wheel. No one has ever claimed wind or solar (or nuclear for that matter) could service 100% of our energy needs without enormous battery banks. Wind and solar because they aren't constant and predictable, and nuclear because it IS constant and predictable (and can't be turned on/off with the flip of a switch) and power usage is variable. A variable energy component will always be part of the grid mix (like gas turbines that can be throttled and shut on/off rapidly) to balance supply and demand.
Exactly.
I do think we need to ramp up solar and wind capacity greatly though. One thing that solar especially has the potential to do is to reduce "peak" strains, since solar tends to have the most output when demand is greatest.
Another way that a solid investment could reap rewards is integrating power grids, so that strains in any one area can be met by a larger overall system.
We can, and do. Next.
Its amazing that wind power is so unreliable and yet is growing at such an expansive rate.
The wind does not just "suddenly" calm over areas the size of wind farms. Thats just ridiculous and utter nonsense.
The probability of wind ceasing over a large area is zero. How often do you see the ocean go from choppy to calm? Calm winds in a large area of the atmosphere are present due to equilibrium and you don't go from one side of the pendulum to the middle on a dime.
Its a non issue hes trying to make an issue.
Well, yes. But in playing Devil's Advocate he does force one to adequately support and explain things, as we have done here.
As much as I might disagree with him on things, I have come to view his participation here as a valuable part of the greater political debate "ecosystem".
It just wouldn't be quite as interesting without his contributions. I find it good to have my assumptions challenged by someone who disagrees with me, as I avoid some of the pitfalls of "group think", just as I have a beer with a group of buddies every week as the Token Liberal Guy.
Even Cobra himself occasionally gets something out of this, I'm sure.
I can agree with that. One of my opposing points to wind power is that it can only remain a small part of our power, unless we do store the energy some how. I don't know where the line would be, but once it exceeded a certain percentage, a sudden loss of wind would not be compensated for by other sources. At a minimum, we would have brown-outs. It could however lead to cascade power grid failures like we've seen in the past. Now we do expect sudden outages at times, but with wind, we would likely multiply that by 100 or so. Think about the few power outages you experience today. Would you like to see that frequency increased dramatically?
My major opposition to wind power is the subsidies. As I have stated over and over, if a technology cannot stand by it's own merit, then it shouldn't be built. When do wind subsidies run out, and what is the cost to tax payers now? What happens in 10 or so years when the power companies have increased costs of operations? Will utility prices increase, or will they RIP them... Retire in Place...
It happens, especially not far from mountains. Ever stay for long periods of time east of the Cascade mountains? The wind, believe it or not, acts at times as if someone threw a switch.
All forms of power receive some subsidies.
One of the problems of renewables, and nuclear is the high initial cost.
Viewed over a long period of time, the expenditures tend to "even out" between renewables and fossil fuel based power, but the high initial capital investment tends to favor lower cost established technology.
Once those subsidies run out, we will have reached the point where we can scale them back, as they will be more mature technologies as well.
We have some strong reasons to think that in 10 years or so, rising costs of fossil fuels will simply make renewables a lot more compe ive anyways. I'm not too worried.
That could be the case, and I expect to see in my lifetime a serious increase in fossil fuel process. Still, it's not something I would bet the [wind] farm on.
Nope. This is just flat out false.
You give him far too much credit, IMO. He doesn't play devil's advocate he simply seeks to destroy every opinion he doesn't agree with, RG and thats important.
I agree its important to have someone who thinks outside the norm but its also important that person actually does so in an intelligent manner. WC just throws a bunch of against the wall and waits for something to stick. He's extremely lazy when it comes to proving his claims and he brings up strawmen and red herrings like he's getting paid per instance.
No it's not. Consider the density of air at different temperatures, air and clouds pouring over a mountain range until equalized. The wind does suddenly stop.
Lived there for several years.
Wind over large areas does not suddenly stop. Thats just completely and utterly false. Provide some data to back up your claim or please stop with this nonsense. I don't care what you "feel" unless you have an ananometer built into that empty head of yours at the appropriate height.
Idiot.
Your asking for a case that if I cannot find it on the internet, it's not true.
you. I lived east of the mountains. I know it's true.
If you want an educational game about folding proteins in molecules, look up "foldit". Interesting, though a bit dry. Fun puzzler.
To be fair WC, there could be some selective bias in your memories. (ie. you remember the days where the wind dies down suddenly, but not the days where the wind was constant).
that, its not even about selective memories. Its about WC not able to accurately measure wind speed at the appropriate height over a large surface area. Its simple ing physics. An fluid in motion doesn't just stop all of a sudden.
If it happens then why can't he prove it?
I'm not sure I see the relevance of arguing whether the wind stops/starts.
There were plenty of windy day. In fact most summer days were, and it was a blessing since the temperatures were normally above 100F where I lived.
I don't claim to no the facts of where windmills are being placed. I only know I have witnessed regular sudden changes in the wind where I lived. Maybe that was unique, but for someone to call me a liar is flat out incompetency. Thinking about it, it probably was unique due to the geography. At least I do recognize that the Cascade mountain range had much to do with it. For Manny to assume fact for all large areas from what appears to be statistics, is real idiotic. To stay on my ass about something he is assuming makes him an absolute and total fool in my book.
Not as idiotic as assuming fact for all large areas from a few square feet of anecdote.
But Manny wasn't saying the wind blows everywhere 95% of the time. He said that there is data for certain areas (ie. the East Coast) where, in total, the wind blows 95% ofthe time. I'm sure there are areas where windmills aren't feasible; that doesn't mean they aren't feasible everywhere.
His argument with me was that I was wrong about the wind being able to suddenly stop. He is flat out wring, but saying I'm wrong. I don't deny the other topics related to the wind and wind power. I point out one relevant drawback, and he says I'm wrong?
My major fear is that we will incorporate too many windmills, at too high of an unsustainable cost. Not that the wind doesn't blow. However, if there are places that the wind suddenly changes speeds, and the power capacity suddenly changes, reserve power can only keep up with a certain rate of change. On the premise that we rely too much on wind, when the wind slows over a large area, will there even be enough reserve power to keep us from having brownouts?
This is why RG/Manny have pointed out that they've done studies on where windpower is nearly continual, where windfarms should be placed. I don't think anyone here is advocating for windfarms in areas where it wouldn't be advantageous.
So 30 years from now will we find out that robbing all this energy from the wind has caused climate change?
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