Right on the Edge: The new conservatives

[Marcus Bryant]

If the idea of American progress is farcical, surely the opposite (ie. perpetual decline) should be held just as farcical, no?

If that was actually the view at hand.

[Marcus Bryant]

I'm willing to hear a cogent argument that our society is worse off now than in past generations; I'd even agree in some areas (fiscal responsibility, literacy, moral equivalency). But I think if there's any area we've improved, it's social tolerance towards others of a different race/gender/sexual preference.

So Americans have become tolerant morons. Grand.

[Marcus Bryant]

Oh, and I was killing fascists when you punks were in diapers.

[Winehole23]

If that was actually the view at hand.

It was out there, if facetiously. Maybe I should have blued it. I thought my sententious manner of construction already did that for me, but LNGR tripped over it.

[LnGrrrR]

No, I can't really blame you for holding up broad caricatures for ridicule instead of paying attention to what people actually say. What else are message boards for?

When people present broad statements, I ridicule them. Perhaps you'd like to point out to me where you and Marcus made an actual argument?

Earlier, you said your comment about declinism was tongue-in-cheek, and yet now you seem serious. Which of the two is it? If you put tongue-in-cheek comments out there, you can't blame me for lambasting them.

If anything, I'd say you're the one who's mischaracterizing what I've said. Feel free to point out where I haven't paid attention to the argument. I believe I have; it's just that there's so little to back up the argument, I'm forced to resort to ridicule.

[Marcus Bryant]

Given that 'hey, the other side is full of a bunch of nutters' is deemed an acceptable argument, I'm not sure the standards here require much more.

[LnGrrrR]

If that was actually the view at hand.

Feel free to better define your view; I've no wish to argue a point you're not trying to make. Your argument seemed to come from this statement:

Not like this. Americans prefer the echo chamber, and the internet plays no small part in satisfying that. Not to mention that Americans increasingly choose to live in neighborhoods with like-minded people.

I've given my reasons why I think Americans aren't necessarily dumber than before, or more close-minded, etc etc. I believe new technology has just made moving to places with like-minded people easier (easier to meet with prospective employers before you move, easier to find an area that suits your tastes).

I also posted some pictures that show that, while communities may be very red or very blue, the states themselves show alot of purple. (Urban districts tend to vote liberal, of course, while rural areas tend to vote conservative.)

I haven't seen a rebuttal yet.

[Winehole23]

@LNGR:

Fair enough. I don't blame you for lambasting anything. By all means, feel free.

IMO there was no substantive argument to start with, just a few stray comments.

Nonetheless, I found your attempt to tease one out clumsy and annoying. That's all, really.

[LnGrrrR]

So Americans have become tolerant morons. Grand.

Eh, it depends on what metrics you're using to gauge intelligence. Is there a baseline we're going off of? Or comparison to other countries?

[LnGrrrR]

Nonetheless, I found your attempt to tease one out clumsy and annoying. That's all, really.

Really? You don't think a comment such as

The myth of progress is ingrained in the American psyche, as much so as the one for American exceptionalism. As the clock moves forward, surely we advance towards something better? There can be no answer other than in the affirmative, for to not accept this is to deny the American state religion.

Repent, ye sinners, and accept American greatness.

is argumentative? You, after all, seemed to agree with the premise he laid out.

So sure is our attainment in progress that those who merely question its soundness are singled out for weird old uncle jokes or ribbed for wearing rose tinted shades.

You implied that those who didn't feel the way you and MB did were only doing so based off ad hominem arguments and jingoistic patriotism. And you can't see why I challenged that view?

If anything was clumsy and annoying, I'd say it's this bit of hand-wringing...

I don't see our barbarous, semi-literate yeomanry reinventing conviviality right away, but maybe it's not too much to hope that "civil society" will not be completely obliterated.

But to each their own.

[Marcus Bryant]

By standards of literacy and academic performance, Americans are certainly worse off than they were four or five decades ago. This country has coasted and looted itself when necessary to feed the false god of material progress. Too much emphasis is given in the public square to this and not enough to the fact that most Americans today are tolerant morons who eschew reading and real understanding and instead measure the quality of their lives by how much they can purchase on credit.

That some areas of the country may be ideologically heterogeneous to some degree is not a sufficient counterpoint.

[LnGrrrR]

Given that 'hey, the other side is full of a bunch of nutters' is deemed an acceptable argument, I'm not sure the standards here require much more.

If you feel like arguing on the level of DarrinS, then sure, that's all you need. I assume higher standards for people who use their brains.

[Marcus Bryant]

If you feel like arguing on the level of DarrinS, then sure, that's all you need. I assume higher standards for people who use their brains.

That argument is worthy of mental exertion? Maybe Darrin is on to something after all.

[LnGrrrR]

By standards of literacy and academic performance, Americans are certainly worse off than they were four or five decades ago. This country has coasted and looted itself when necessary to feed the false god of material progress. Too much emphasis is given in the public square to this and not enough to the fact that most Americans today are tolerant morons who eschew reading and real understanding and instead measure the quality of their lives by how much they can purchase on credit.

That some areas of the country may be ideologically heterogeneous to some degree is not a sufficient counterpoint.

Fair enough. I agreed earlier that literacy rates suck, and I've heard numerous peers say that they "hate reading", which astounds me. I don't think that people of today are necessarily any dumber/lazier etc etc intrinsically, just that changing times may lead to different values/abilities/etc.

Heck, the dumbing down of America could very well coincide with the concentration of wealth in the hands of fewer and fewer people. They've done numerous studies, and no single factor is a better indicator of educational success than wealth.

[LnGrrrR]

That argument is worthy of mental exertion? Maybe Darrin is on to something after all.

The argument that America is getting worse in toto isn't worthy of mental exertion, I agree.

[Marcus Bryant]

Heck, the dumbing down of America could very well coincide with the concentration of wealth in the hands of fewer and fewer people. They've done numerous studies, and no single factor is a better indicator of educational success than wealth.

They've also done studies and no single issue is more important to this country than the fact that it is full of tolerant morons.

[LnGrrrR]

They've also done studies and no single issue is more important to this country than the fact that it is full of tolerant morons.

Do you think there's anything that could be done to fix that? Or do you think it's hopeless by this point?

(Personally, having to choose between intolerant geniuses and tolerant morons isn't very appealing)

[Marcus Bryant]

Is video gone or here to stay?

[LnGrrrR]

Is video gone or here to stay?

I'd say that video alone doesn't necessarily make us dumber... but it sure does take a lot less work to watch than to read. (One would think that faster comprehension of material would make one more effectively able to accomplish tasks. Ah well.)

I'm not quite so doom-and-gloom, but I can see your point.

[LnGrrrR]

If anything, I'm appalled by the general lack of curiosity of the younger crowd... unless it's something about Lindsay Lohan. They don't seem to mind being dumb, in many cases. Pretty frightening.

[Winehole23]

Really? You don't think a comment such as
...is argumentative? You, after all, seemed to agree with the premise he laid out.

That so-called progress may not be as solid as it is generally assumed to be?

Yes. That is certainly argumentative.

I stand by that argument 100%.

You implied that those who didn't feel the way you and MB did were only doing so based off ad hominem arguments and jingoistic patriotism. And you can't see why I challenged that view?

Not sure who/what you're referring to, unless it be your own snarky comments I snarked on.

If anything was clumsy and annoying, I'd say it's this bit of hand-wringing...

I can see how it sounds like that. It didn't feel like hand wringing when I said it. It felt more like I was laying my clothes out for work.

There it is: the monkey suit.

Looking back, I scan my comment as an openly hopeful sentiment: irrational/unrationalizable humanity and its lifeways might not be totally obliterated in the global gangbang of everyday life.

[Winehole23]

The argument that America is getting worse in toto isn't worthy of mental exertion, I agree.

In toto? No one said soto.

[Winehole23]

Feel free to point out where I haven't paid attention to the argument. I believe I have; it's just that there's so little to back up the argument, I'm forced to resort to ridicule.

Been there many times. I may get back there sometime.

[Winehole23]

I don't think its about being close-minded. Problem is, in our efforts to be egalitarian, we water down our educational system and lower the bar so that everyone can "succeed" and no one gets their feewings hurt. We are all CREATED equal, but what people do with that potential is entirely up to the individual.

If it's entirely up to the individual, sucky, levelling-down educational ins utions are really beside the point, aren't they?

The excellent, excel. Everybody else grinds.

We also live in a time when people feel a sense of en lement. We have live in a time where "Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country" would be considered a very conservative ideal.

I'm a little chary of the clientelistic overtones of JFK's remark, but whatever.

Yeah. Some people might say that's conservative.

Do you?

[DarrinS]

If anything, I'm appalled by the general lack of curiosity of the younger crowd... unless it's something about Lindsay Lohan. They don't seem to mind being dumb, in many cases. Pretty frightening.

Same crowd that pushed Obama over the top. Obama is scheduled to have an MTV town hall meeting soon. LOL.