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Duncan >>>>> Rodman
Duncan never pulled horse like I saw Rodman do in 1995.
Right off the bat I want to say Welcome to the good-spirited Better Defender debate. Please, only pure basketball reasoning to back up your opinion. No agendas, baby.
Dennis Rodman / Tim Duncan
Better defensive PF?
Defensive Rebounding = Rodman
Man to man defense (most important in the post) = Rodman
Team defense = Rodman by a hair
Rodman has 2 DPOY awards to Duncan's 0.
For those wondering, Rodman is also a 5 time champ trumping Duncan's 4 (or 3.5 depending on your source).
Rodman has never NOT repeated
Rodman won 2 in a row for Detroit
Rodman won 3 in a row with the Bulls
Rodman was the much better athlete, Top 10 athlete to ever play the game.
Am I saying it's a landslide? No, not entirely, although it may look that way based on facts laid out above.
-Duncan was the better shot blocker (which doesn't make up for everything else Rodman is better at on Defense). Duncan averaged one more block than Rodman. This makes much more sense when you look a little deeper though. Something to remember is that Duncan get's a lot of his blocks from the weakside, hardly ever gets blocks on his own man. Not chopping his legs off here, just stating a fact. :-)
-Duncan played more minutes than Rodman. Even out those minutes and Rodman's "stats" are much more impressive.
Duncan >>>>> Rodman
Duncan never pulled horse like I saw Rodman do in 1995.
This is your idea of an intelligent response to a better defender debate? You are automatically dismissed. Learn how to participate in a debate, come back and try again...
Duncan
Horrible troll attempt
this troll is annoying as
Rodman was a good rebounder, not a good defender.
DPOY never really gives credit to the players who play good defence, only those who rack up "defensive" stats. Classic example is Bowen never winning it, whilst Camby was.
Duncan an easy winner in this one.
...with nothing to back it up.
I gave you a nice little write up to start this off. It might have been too convincing, judging by the replies thus far.
Not one Spur fan is showing the capacity to debate logically and objectively.
Any one have the for ude?
Of course, if you buy into some of the advanced metrics, they'd readily dispute your mostly subjective analysis.
For instance, in Defensive Rating, which measures points allowed per 100 possessions, Duncan is far superior. Duncan's DRtg is 94.92pts/100poss, which is 2nd all-time; Rodman's is 100.26pts/100poss, which is 52nd all-time.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...tg_career.html
Or in Defensive Win Shares, Duncan is 7th all-time (81.70), while Rodman is 32nd (54.46).
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...ws_career.html
As evidenced by what? You bring nothing to the table to back it up.
LMAO... when Camby won the award - was Bowen worthy? NO. The only season Bowen was remotely close to 'worthy' was the year RON ARTEST won it. Ron Artest is the better defender between the two and had the better season defensively, which is why he won it over BOWEN.DPOY never really gives credit to the players who play good defence, only those who rack up "defensive" stats. Classic example is Bowen never winning it, whilst Camby was.
With nothing to back it up. Dismissed again...Duncan an easy winner in this one.
Duncan and it's not even close, Rodman maybe a better rebounder. But not a better defender.
Rodman was a great defender when he wanted to be.
He didn't always want to be one. Especially when he played in SA.
Rodman is only a more versatile defender.
in the post, I'd rather have Duncan defending. But if I needed a glue guy defender in a team, Rodman. He could prob guard all 5 positions reasonably well.
Cherrypicking flawed stats is an automatic dismissal in a real basketball debate. Everybody knows this. Defensive rating... Defensive win shares?Please.
Anything REAL to bring to the table besides cherrypicked flawed stats which reveal next to nothing?
I'd agree, also, that DPOY voting is a pretty bad way to assess players historically. I'm not even sure that it's a particularly good way to assess players in the same year, but from year-to-year it makes little sense at all.
To extrapolate from those advanced metrics I previously cited, Duncan (while never winning DPOY) has led the league in Defensive Rating three times in his career and has led the league in Defensive Win Shares five times. Rodman never led the league in Defensive Rating and led in Defensive Win Shares only once (and that was in a year in which he didn't win DPOY).
Finally a realistic response. I can respect responses like this.
Cheers, lmbebo!
Rodman was the more versatile defender. At 6'7", he could guard positions 2-5 in some cases. Obviously he was more effective guarding 4-5 even at a height disadvantage.
All of which means absolutely nothing in this debate.
Sorry, FromWayDowntown, but the NBA does not hand out Defensive Win Share awards or Defensive Rating awards. They are flawed stats - nothing more and nothing less.
That you would bring this to the table in a debate makes me
Only people who CAN'T understand the game themselves rely on silly flawed stats to formulate an opinion.
So in 2005-06 and 2006-07, when Bowen got the most votes from the NBA's coaches of any player in All-Defensive team voting (more than Marcus Camby), he wasn't close to being worthy of being the Defensive Player of the Year?
Are you really arguing that the NBA media knows more about quality defense than the NBA's coaches?
Rodman, hands down. Sorry TD, but you had nothing on Rodman when he was locked in.
Oh, I'm not relying on either of those stats, and you'll note that I haven't specifically contested your conclusion -- all I've said is that there are objective measures (something more than what tbonewalker happens to think about an issue) that would dispute your argument.All of which means absolutely nothing in this debate.
Sorry, FromWayDowntown, but the NBA does not hand out Defensive Win Share awards or Defensive Rating awards. They are flawed stats - nothing more and nothing less.
That you would bring this to the table in a debate makes me
Only people who CAN'T understand the game themselves rely on silly flawed stats to formulate an opinion.
It is funny, though, that rather than dealing with what those measures suggest, you simply choose to reject measures that a substantial number of very smart people who make real basketball decisions rely upon in some way shape or form.
Agreed, and there's nothing wrong with giving Rodman props here.
Game recognize game.
I can understand if you were just throwing the flawed stats out there in the 'debate hat' but if you are going to rely on them as your reasoning that Duncan is the better defender... it will be dismissed, and you seem like a smart enough guy to figure out why.
You really believe GM's and Coaches look at Defensive Rating and Defensive Win Share stats when assessing a player?
I highly, highly, highly doubt that. I'd go as far as saying most GM's and Coaches have no clue about these two worthless stats.
Yet the guys who created them and stats like them have been employed by NBA teams and more and more teams are hiring adherents to those sorts of advanced metrics.
And since you haven't bothered with my other question -- who knows more about quality defense: NBA media or NBA coaches?
Ahhh, OK Gotcha, I thought you were smarter than that at first and was wondering if you were going to rely on those stats. I was correct.
Do you understand how I came to my conclusion?
Sounds like someone is limited to the Spurs blinders perspective.
When I think of Dennis I think Detroit Pistons in his younger days and in Chicago in his latter days.
That said, Dennis Rodman is the superior defender and his multiple Defensive Player of the Year awards serve as a great support of this.
I understand that you have relied on fairly subjective measures of evaluating defense and are willing to discount more objective measures (without explaining why they're flawed). I also understand that you hold the views of NBA coaches in fairly low regard and accept the views of the NBA media in assessing the quality of a player's defense -- otherwise, you couldn't possibly argue that Bruce Bowen wasn't remotely the best defender in basketball for several years.Ahhh, OK Gotcha, I thought you were smarter than that at first and was wondering if you were going to rely on those stats. I was correct.
Do you understand how I came to my conclusion?
So, yes.
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