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If that were the case, you wouldn't be posting.
Better defender: Kobe Bryant. Why won't you guys see how great he is?
Duncan-led teams have held opponents (both Regular season and Playoffs) to record low PPG and FG%....
something like 82.4 PPG for the whole season....
Rodman never led his teams to that type of defensive prowess...
And since you've already discounted the two metrics FWD provided; I'm fairly certain you don't understand the implications of game pace... mostly because they don't suit the needs of your argument...
Last edited by Phenomanul; 10-06-2010 at 04:18 PM.
If that were the case, you wouldn't be posting.
Better defender: Kobe Bryant. Why won't you guys see how great he is?
Also, Rodman was known to gamble on defense just for the sake of padding his rebound numbers... Duncan's not a stat-padder by any sense of the word....
Good, thats out of the way. Now you can park your behind back into the 'on-topic' seat!
Topic is Duncan/Rodman (better defender) yet you can't get off of Bruce Bowen who got beat out by a better defender (Artest) the ONE year he was closest to winning that award.
LOL What?
So Rodman's teams didn't play the slow the game down to Tim Duncan snail like pace in order to lower opponents overall PPG and so that statistic is used as the measure for superior defense?
This place is a joke. Will any objective fans who actually know the game of basketball and don't speak stat geek please stand up and let your voice be heard?
Spurs played defense better than the Bad Boys Pistons? Lol
Better than MJ's Bulls?
Land of Delusion.
Congrats, you are the first person to mention Kobe in this thread. Any clue on how to participate in a good-spirited debate?
One part of a debate is debunking the bogus sources that one side relies upon to support its arguments or its credibility. Your argument about Bowen, which brings into question your subjective assessments of defensive play, is untenable if only because the All-Defense Team voting for several years shows that Bowen got more votes from NBA coaches than any other player in the league during those seasons.
So, either your all-in on DPOY voting (done by the media) and give no credence to what the NBA coaches think (as evidenced by their All-Defense team voting) OR your assessments of defensive play don't jive with those of the people on this planet who should know as much as anyone about NBA defense.
Which is it?
...under the delusion that you are somehow not a troll...
Like I said, you're not bright enough to understand the implications of game pace...
Rodman was a better rebounder.... that's about it.
Who brought up Bowen?
Who threw out the legitimacy of All-NBA Defense recognition?
Not me.
Debunking? Yet you have debunked nothing. The only thing you have provided to this debate thus far is worthless flawed stats and an off-topic rant on Bowen never winning DPOY.
Back to square one then:
-Defensive Rebounding = Rodman
-Man to man defense (most important in the post) = Rodman
-Team defense = Rodman by a hair
-Rodman has 2 DPOY awards to Duncan's 0.
-For those wondering, Rodman is also a 5 time champ trumping Duncan's 4 (or 3.5 depending on your source).
-Rodman has never NOT repeated
-Rodman won 2 in a row for Detroit
-Rodman won 3 in a row with the Bulls
-Rodman was the much better athlete, Top 10 athlete to ever play the game.
Debunk away OR at the very least, provide your own work and your own conclusion. Until then, you are dismissed sir. Cheers.
By the way, in 2005-06, Bowen got 26 first place votes from the league's coaches and 55 total points (most among all players) in All-Defense voting; NBA DPOY Ben Wallace got 26 first place votes, too, and ended with 54 total points.
In 2006-07, Bowen got 19 first place votes (most among all players) and 42 total points in coaches voting; DPOY Marcus Camby got 11 first place votes and had 34 points.
Yeah, Bowen wasn't close to being a better defender. The NBA coaches thought he was better, but what the do they know?
Cool, except that does nothing for you in this debate. Read above, you can formulate your own opinion and show how you reached your conclusion, au revoir.
...under the delusion that you are somehow not a troll...
Like I said, you're not bright enough to understand the implications of game pace...
Rodman was a better rebounder.... that's about it.
The implication that game pace does not dictate superior defense? Easily.
Especially when you consider that what you're talking about is a team oriented goal, not an individual, which is what this topic is about.
In Tim's 13 year career has he ever once been recognized as the games best defender? Nope.
End of thread.
Why are the stats flawed? Please explain, and the answer isn't "Because I have no clue what they mean" or "Because I don't like them" or "Because they don't support my argument."
Statistically true.
What's your proof of that? Just your flawed opinion?-Man to man defense (most important in the post) = Rodman
What's your proof of that? Duncan's teams have been statistically great (and observably great as well) on the defensive end for all but the last 2 years of his career.-Team defense = Rodman by a hair
Media knows more than coaches? See Bowen.-Rodman has 2 DPOY awards to Duncan's 0.
Rodman played with Michael Jordan; this is akin to arguing that Robert Horry > Tim Duncan. And it has nothing to do with proving that anyone is a great defender on an individual basis.-For those wondering, Rodman is also a 5 time champ trumping Duncan's 4 (or 3.5 depending on your source).
Well, it suggests pretty strongly that reliance on who won or didn't win DPOY doesn't necessarily correlate to determining who was the best defensive player in the league in any given year.
I love Spurs trolls...
In a topic about Rodman and Duncan, someone brings up Bruce Bowen and how many 1st place votes he got in DPOY polls.
It's like the need to endlessly pump up a Spur is like breathing around here. If you don't do this, you die.
LOL ESPN newbs getting their asses handed to them...
In every season of Tim's 13 year career, he has been recognized as one of the 4 best defensive forwards in basketball -- and in 8 of those 13 seasons, he's been recognized as one of the 2 best.
In his 12 full seasons in the NBA, Dennis Rodman was so recognized only 8 times altogether and only 7 on the First Team.
And this post contributes to the 'debate' how?
LOL -- Spurs trolls on a Spurs fan forum.
I'm not making any argument for Bruce Bowen. All I'm saying is that the media voting for DPOY is a pretty shaky barometer to rely upon if you're going to argue that one player was a better defender than another.
Most statistics would prove this to be true. Even those accounting for pace.
So ummm... which objective metric was used to arrive at this rather subjective conclusion? Enlighten us.
So ummm... which objective metric was used to arrive at this rather subjective conclusion? Enlighten us.
The point that eluded you earlier was that DPOY awards don't represent the be all, end all metric of defensive criteria... because they are awarded by THE MEDIA...
And this relates to the comparison of those players' defensive ap udes? How exactly? No agenda.... Really?
And this relates to the comparison of those players' defensive ap udes? How exactly? I could make the statement that Rodman never led his teams to championships... or garnered MVP awards or Finals MVP awards... but this argument is irrelevant to the comparison of Duncan's and Rodman's defensive impact.
And this relates to the comparison of those players' defensive ap udes? How exactly?
But just to be clear a guy by the name of Isaiah Thomas led his Pistons team to 2 in a row... Rodman played his role (nothing more, nothing less).
And this relates to the comparison of those players' defensive ap udes? How exactly?
But just to be clear a guy by the name of Michael Jordan led his Bulls team to 3 in a row... Rodman played his role (nothing more, nothing less).
As subjective a conclusion as this is... it's one that is likely backed by most NBA conosseiurs... Rodman did the most with the tools he was given, due largely to his athletic gifts...
Troll.-Debunk away OR at the very least, provide your own work and your own conclusion. Until then, you are dismissed sir. Cheers.
Rodman was a beast when he was on the bad boy pistons. In that type of defensive setting, Rodman was the stopper. But because of his limited offensive repitiore, he only played at the most 30 min a night. However the style of ball that the Bad Boy Pistons played demanded physical and tenacious defense. I think at one point in his 2nd year the dude started the last 45 games of the season, the Pistons finished the season 39-5. Who was the focal point of the defense? Dennis.
In terms of rebounding he posted the highest rebounding average since Wilt in 20 years in 92-93. Dude was also an athletic freak, probably up there with pippen, and could play lock down d in any position.
Sorry Timmy as much as i love you and the Spurs, it would be very biased of me to say that Rodman wasn't the better defender
Duncan, hands down.
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