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lmao @ masking the real purpose of this thread with stats that were just googled.
The topic has merit as a good debate. Nothing about raising the question or arguing for Rodman strikes me as being a trolling attempt.
But it's ridiculous that one side of the debate would simply choose to ignore objective evidence that supports the other side, particularly when: (1) that objective evidence is exactly the sort of analysis relied upon more and more frequently by NBA teams in making personnel decisions; and (2) the side rejecting that evidence can't offer anything resembling a meaningful justification for discounting that evidence. It's that part of this thread that is trollish.
I've got money to make. I'm done.
lmao @ masking the real purpose of this thread with stats that were just googled.
If you ask me, which player I'd choose to slow down a Karl Malone, Charles Barkley or even LeBron James, I'd had to say Rodman (but not by much).
If you ask me, to choose the guy, that can be the anchor of my (team-)defense, I'd have to go with Duncan (by very much).
That said, Duncan wins it by a landslide...its like comparing Ray Allen to LeBron James and saying: Ray's 3pt shooting is better and he won more championships...so he is the better offensive player!
Better player tho, Duncan no questions asked
lets adress two other issues of the defensive player voting (without telling eveybody how great Bowen was --we know and love him for that--)!
aside from the stat heavy voting that leads shotblockers and steal mashines to get the award...its also important, to have a team, that really suits that particular player:
version1: nicknamed defensive teams like the "badboy pistons", make media feel, one of these players has to get the award, while its a team efford!
version2: lets say it with zo mournings words: "I thank my teammates for letting their men blow by them."
second thing: often it feels like the DPOY award is handed to players that are no two way players! guys like Wallace, Rodman, mutombo win it, but even players like Jordon (1) or Kobe (none) had a hard time getting their hands on it (not implementing they should have multiple ones)! while you can make a statement, that some of these players committed so much to the defensive end of the court, I think stuff like that prohibited guys like Duncan (not necessarily he) from winning that hardware.
At least you can see it's not a "troll" attempt. Some people throw that term around too loosely. I'm all for good-spirited debate. Just bring something to the table besides the homer inspired "Duncan easily".
In regards to you being 'done' (in your words), in all honesty, you've been done since I dismissed you with your first "contribution" to this debate.
You offered nothing other than a flawed stat which proved absolutely nothing and thus got you nowhere. You even stated you weren't relying on the flawed Defensive Win Share and Defensive Rating stats, yet you keep trying to fall back on them.
You then went off-topic and started complaining about Bowen never winning DPOY.
Then, what really destroyed your credibility was when you said:
"Defensive Win Shares and Defensive Rating... is exactly the sort of analysis relied upon more and more frequently by NBA teams in making personnel decisions."
By all means, FromWayDowntown, have another glass!
NBA Teams rely on Defensive Win Shares and Defensive Rating to evaluate a player when making personnel decisions?
Bwahahahaha!! And you want me to justify why I laugh and dismiss that pile of crap? Honestly bro...
Ron Artest, Gary Payton?
But Kobe's the Greatest Closer In The Game©. Why won't you see that?
Adverb
often (comparative more often or oftener, superlative most often or oftenest)
1. Frequently, many times.
and yeah...I think Artest is part of it!
That's arguable, but not the topic.
Care to put aside your Laker hate, and participate like a man should be willing and able to?
not the Lakers: they heard Artest won the DPOY award, so they had to get him! It's the way such teams work: No scouting or stat analysing at all...just using Wikipedia to assess players!
Wrong.
Ariza's agent balked at the Lakers offer and asked for more and so the Lakers looked elsewhere. They called Ron Artest right away because they knew Ron would be an upgrade and would better equip the Lakers for the elite SF's.
But leave it to Spur fans to go off topic again.
Have we reached a conclusion on Rodman/Duncan? I know I have.. and nobody has convinced me otherwise.
Just a cursory google search:
Numbers alone won't turn things around for the Indiana Pacers, but they can play a huge role when properly applied. That's why I'm so excited that the Pacers are working with Kevin Pelton, well regarded APBRmetrician and writer from Basketball Prospectus, to sharpen their decision-making process by utilizing Pelton's analysis.
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Another one
I spent the weekend at the MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference in Boston. Last year, the same conference was held in a small academic building on the campus of MIT in Cambridge for 400 attendees. This year, the numbers exploded — one thousand individuals wore name tags, along with 400 people on a wait list. Those in Boston included NBA executives and prominent agents. Organizers moved the conference across the Charles River to the Boston Convention Center in order to accommodate the demand.
The substance of the conference was pretty much what you’d expect. Houston Rockets general manager Daryl Morey (the founder of the conference), Analytics godfather Dean Oliver (who works for the Nuggets), Dallas Mavericks owner Mark Cuban, Portland Trail Blazers general manager Kevin Pritchard, Boston Celtics assistant general manager Mike Zarren and others who apply advanced statistical analytics to better their teams spoke on various panels about the value of this discipline in generating wins. Academics presented papers on everything from the value of a blocked shot to how best to maximize shot distribution among a team’s players.
that wasnt the point! its just that you are telling us, how big the DPOY award is and that nothing else matters!
and thats why someone brought Bowen up...We also could have it called: Why didnt win Kobe one and Camby did! thats fine!
...and I dont think, anyone wants to convince you by now! If someone just wants to troll...let them troll!
What you think is irrelevant. We're not here to entertain you.
You either want to debate and willing to accept what others bring to the table, or there's simply no debate and you're just getting your ass handed to you.
Obviously, you picked the latter
Im not a stat guy but rodman's best defensive years were when he played for the pistons as a SF/PF. Back then he wasnt as good a rebounder ...but he could guard everyone from Bird to Karl malone. When he started focusing on being the best rebounder of his generation his defense slipped.
Duncan was much better at guarding true post players and anchoring a team defense. But rodman was more versatile even as his defense slipped. A Pistons Era Rodman is one of the few guys that could bother Karl malone AND chase around a Dirk type PF. But since Duncan was the better defender longer I say Duncan.
LOL moved to the NBA Forum...
You might have a point if I ever stated that 'nothing else matters'.
Go dig around for that statement by me. Let me know when you hit water.
Just a cursory google search:
Numbers alone won't turn things around for the Indiana Pacers, but they can play a huge role when properly applied. That's why I'm so excited that the Pacers are working with Kevin Pelton, well regarded APBRmetrician and writer from Basketball Prospectus, to sharpen their decision-making process by utilizing Pelton's analysis.
----------
Another one
I spent the weekend at the MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference in Boston. Last year, the same conference was held in a small academic building on the campus of MIT in Cambridge for 400 attendees. This year, the numbers exploded — one thousand individuals wore name tags, along with 400 people on a wait list. Those in Boston included NBA executives and prominent agents. Organizers moved the conference across the Charles River to the Boston Convention Center in order to accommodate the demand.
The substance of the conference was pretty much what you’d expect. Houston Rockets general manager Daryl Morey (the founder of the conference), Analytics godfather Dean Oliver (who works for the Nuggets), Dallas Mavericks owner Mark Cuban, Portland Trail Blazers general manager Kevin Pritchard, Boston Celtics assistant general manager Mike Zarren and others who apply advanced statistical analytics to better their teams spoke on various panels about the value of this discipline in generating wins. Academics presented papers on everything from the value of a blocked shot to how best to maximize shot distribution among a team’s players.
LOL, thanks for proving that you have zero credibility. You did the leg work for me.
A quick google search (above) revealed nothing other than the Pacers using "advanced statistics" to accompany their decision making process.
You might have a point if the Pacers were successful in doing so. Too bad they have been on a steady downward spiral just like the Spurs. Maybe the Spurs are using these flawed statistics. That would explain their recent collapse and horrible front office decisions.
How has that worked out for the Pacers? LOL!!!
dont have to dig around: just quoted it above my statement...go get some goggles! I'm out!
somewhere a lakers executive is like: "damn, we need to adress our outside defense! but this Gary Payton is the last guard to win the DPOY award! where can I get his number!"
LOL getting owned in your own 'debate'
LOL dumbass can't read.
LOL having to cherry pick the Pacers out of a list of 5 teams
LOL getting owned in your own 'debate'
LOL dumbass can't read.
LOL having to cherry pick the Pacers out of a list of 5 teams
OK, smart aleck.
Have any of those teams other than Boston won a championship since using these 'advanced statistics'? Next.
And did Boston acquire KG and Ray Allen based upon Defensive Win Shares and Defensive Rating? Dismissed.
Rodman is the more versatile defender and better man defender..he had the ability to defend 3/4/5 and even the 2 at times, he was great at playing mind games..Timmy was a great man defender for years, but his individual D has been just "good" for a while now..he has had to move over to defend 5s instead of 4s due to his diminished quickness, something Rodman never really had to do..
As an anchor, I don't really see how it's debatable..Duncan is obviously the better defensive anchor..
As an overall defender, it obviously depends on what you need..cliche answer, but there is no other answer IMO..
Rodman is one of the most overrated players in NBA history though..I hate when he's compared to players like Duncan, because his role was so much different, and his responsibilities were much less important..he was a defender and rebounder..Duncan is/was a defender/defensive anchor, a rebounder, the primary option on offense for scoring and even passing for years, a leadership role..
While Rodman is an athletic freak and a great player, he always had less responsibility than guys like Duncan, Olajuwon, Malone, Shaq and others..
Agreed. They are very different. Duncan's role was to anchor the entire defense and help. While Rodman focused more on his own matchup. I think at their primes Rodman was the better 1 on 1 defender though and always took the best player at 4 or 5 while at times duncan was hidden from that guy so he can help others which many coaches do with their stars especially when they are scorers like Tim. I just think duncan had a more instrumental role defensively on the spurs best teams than rodman. Also, Rodman's defense was overrated vastly by his bulls days ...Duncan's impact on defense has just started slipping the past two seasons or so ...
Last edited by Killakobe81; 10-06-2010 at 06:32 PM.
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