Better Defender: Dennis Rodman or Tim Duncan

[JamStone]

Whether the OP is just a troll and regardless of the initial agenda, I think the topic is actually a worthwhile discussion.

A few things I would comment before saying who I think is the better defender. Dennis has a reputation as a rebounding stat-padder who would compromise his defense in order to rack up rebounds. I don't think that was the case for most of his career. Perhaps in San Antonio (admittedly I didn't watch many of his games when he played for the Spurs) or in his last few seasons with the Bulls, which may very well be the case. But in his prime with the Pistons, he wasn't trying to stat-pad for more rebounds, at least not most of the time from what I saw. His rebounding was invaluable to closing out defensive possessions.

As far as defensive rating goes, which Duncan clearly has the edge, it's a little skewed. Dennis Rodman was often put on the best offensive player regardless of position on the opposing team. He generally had a tougher job throughout the game than Duncan would have. Not that Duncan would never take the toughest big man match-up, but we all know the drill with Pop and how he would keep Duncan off the better scoring big man to keep him out of foul trouble so Duncan could then switch onto that scoring big late in games. So while Duncan may have that duty for 10-15 MPG, Rodman was tested defensively for 30 MPG on most nights. Defensive Rating doesn't take that into consideration.

A perfect example of what I'm talking about are the 2003-04 Spurs where Bowen had what is regarded his best defensive season. That season, Bowen had a Defensive Rating of 97. But look at his teammates Manu Ginobili and Hedo Turkoglu. Ginobili's DR was 93 and Hedo's DR was 94 that season. So were Ginobili and Hedo better defenders than Bowen that season? Or was it rather the fact that Bowen had the task of guarding the best perimeter player on opposing teams? Just something to think about when you compare Defensive Ratings between Rodman and Duncan.

I think Rodman was certainly the most versatile defender. Similar to guys like KG or Kenyon Martin or Shawn Marion, Rodman was given different defensive duties, sometimes a really tough PG match-up like Magic all the way to a young Shaquille O'Neal and every position in between. Duncan guards centers and power forwards. That's it.

Now all that said, you might think I'd give the edge to Rodman. No. The better defender is/was Tim Duncan. Tim Duncan's value to the Spurs defense goes beyond statistics. His presence in the paint deters and alters scoring opportunities. Especially in a Pop schemed defense, Duncan anchors the entire defense. Rodman was entrusted on any given night to stop one player. Duncan (and this goes for any great defensive big man) is entrusted to anchor the entire defense and stop any player on the opposing team in the paint, whether by blocking shots, taking up space, communicating to teammates, closing the lane, and closing out defensive possessions with securing rebounds. His value to a defense had greater impact than Dennis'. Dennis wasn't an elite low post defender (although still very good) or a great shotblocker. He was great at taking charges, switching on picks, and just being a pest in general. But his defensive value beyond rebounding generally involved stopping one player. Duncan, again like most great defensive big man, had the responsibility of anchoring the entire defense and stopping the entire opposing team when they were in the paint or around the rim. To me, I value that more.

It's a good debate though, and I think it's close than most Spurs fans would probably realize or admit. But Duncan is the better defender. Compare Duncan to guys like Hakeem or Ben Wallace, it's not contest. Duncan would lose that comparison. But against Rodman, I think Duncan was the better defender.

[TD 21]

It's real simple. Because of Duncan's vastly superior height and length, he could impact the game more defensively, which makes him the better defender. There's nothing more valuable defensively than an elite anchor.

Why do you think Howard is widely considered to be the best defensive player in the game today?

Harlem makes an excellent point about Rodman having had far less responsibility than Duncan, which allowed him to focus virtually all of his energy on defense and rebounding.

[Killakobe81]

Whether the OP is just a troll and regardless of the initial agenda, I think the topic is actually a worthwhile discussion.

A few things I would comment before saying who I think is the better defender. Dennis has a reputation as a rebounding stat-padder who would compromise his defense in order to rack up rebounds. I don't think that was the case for most of his career. Perhaps in San Antonio (admittedly I didn't watch many of his games when he played for the Spurs) or in his last few seasons with the Bulls, which may very well be the case. But in his prime with the Pistons, he wasn't trying to stat-pad for more rebounds, at least not most of the time from what I saw. His rebounding was invaluable to closing out defensive possessions.
As far as defensive rating goes, which Duncan clearly has the edge, it's a little skewed. Dennis Rodman was often put on the best offensive player regardless of position on the opposing team. He generally had a tougher job throughout the game than Duncan would have. Not that Duncan would never take the toughest big man match-up, but we all know the drill with Pop and how he would keep Duncan off the better scoring big man to keep him out of foul trouble so Duncan could then switch onto that scoring big late in games. So while Duncan may have that duty for 10-15 MPG, Rodman was tested defensively for 30 MPG on most nights. Defensive Rating doesn't take that into consideration.

A perfect example of what I'm talking about are the 2003-04 Spurs where Bowen had what is regarded his best defensive season. That season, Bowen had a Defensive Rating of 97. But look at his teammates Manu Ginobili and Hedo Turkoglu. Ginobili's DR was 93 and Hedo's DR was 94 that season. So were Ginobili and Hedo better defenders than Bowen that season? Or was it rather the fact that Bowen had the task of guarding the best perimeter player on opposing teams? Just something to think about when you compare Defensive Ratings between Rodman and Duncan.

I think Rodman was certainly the most versatile defender. Similar to guys like KG or Kenyon Martin or Shawn Marion, Rodman was given different defensive duties, sometimes a really tough PG match-up like Magic all the way to a young Shaquille O'Neal and every position in between. Duncan guards centers and power forwards. That's it.

Now all that said, you might think I'd give the edge to Rodman. No. The better defender is/was Tim Duncan. Tim Duncan's value to the Spurs defense goes beyond statistics. His presence in the paint deters and alters scoring opportunities. Especially in a Pop schemed defense, Duncan anchors the entire defense. Rodman was entrusted on any given night to stop one player. Duncan (and this goes for any great defensive big man) is entrusted to anchor the entire defense and stop any player on the opposing team in the paint, whether by blocking shots, taking up space, communicating to teammates, closing the lane, and closing out defensive possessions with securing rebounds. His value to a defense had greater impact than Dennis'. Dennis wasn't an elite low post defender (although still very good) or a great shotblocker. He was great at taking charges, switching on picks, and just being a pest in general. But his defensive value beyond rebounding generally involved stopping one player. Duncan, again like most great defensive big man, had the responsibility of anchoring the entire defense and stopping the entire opposing team when they were in the paint or around the rim. To me, I value that more.

It's a good debate though, and I think it's close than most Spurs fans would probably realize or admit. But Duncan is the better defender. Compare Duncan to guys like Hakeem or Ben Wallace, it's not contest. Duncan would lose that comparison. But against Rodman, I think Duncan was the better defender.

Agreed. great post. Like i said ...Pistons rodman>>>Bulls>Spur rodman ...

[JamStone]

Rodman is one of the most overrated players in NBA history though..I hate when he's compared to players like Duncan, because his role was so much different, and his responsibilities were much less important..he was a defender and rebounder..Duncan is/was a defender/defensive anchor, a rebounder, the primary option on offense for scoring and even passing for years, a leadership role..

While Rodman is an athletic freak and a great player, he always had less responsibility than guys like Duncan, Olajuwon, Malone, Shaq and others..

In his Pistons days, Rodman did not only focus on rebounding. He was often given the responsibility of guarding the best offensive player, sometimes guys smaller and quicker than him or much bigger and stronger than him. That in itself is quite the task. And as I just mentioned above, guys like Duncan or Shaq would often be given a break defensively at least to the extent they wouldn't guard the best scoring big man on the opposing teams for most of the game to save them from foul trouble and to keep them fresh for offense. It's a little disingenuous to minimize Rodman's impact because he wasn't much of an offensive player. He rebounded at an unbelievable rate early on in his career even when he carried those primary defensive responsibilities as a "stopper."

[Darrin]

Rodman because he was all over the court. I love TD, but he can't guard a prime Gary Payton.

[HarlemHeat37]

In his Pistons days, Rodman did not only focus on rebounding. He was often given the responsibility of guarding the best offensive player, sometimes guys smaller and quicker than him or much bigger and stronger than him. That in itself is quite the task. And as I just mentioned above, guys like Duncan or Shaq would often be given a break defensively at least to the extent they wouldn't guard the best scoring big man on the opposing teams for most of the game to save them from foul trouble and to keep them fresh for offense. It's a little disingenuous to minimize Rodman's impact because he wasn't much of an offensive player. He rebounded at an unbelievable rate early on in his career even when he carried those primary defensive responsibilities as a "stopper."

And that's why Rodman is a great player..he had a unique ability to combine all of the traits you mentioned, he had unbelievable athleticism and stamina..

However, do you really believe it's comparable to carrying the load offensively, while also being the defensive anchor and rebounder on the team?..I don't think it's comparable, and I don't think I'm insulting Rodman by making a statement of that kind..

[JamStone]

Is it comparable? I would say no.

Does it make him as overrated as you suggest? I would say no to that as well.

His responsibilities as a defender was an extremely difficult task. Think about guys like Bruce Bowen or Ron Artest. Give that to Rodman, but add to that fact that his defensive responsibilities sometimes included guarding the likes of Shaquille O'Neal or Karl Malone and not just the Kobes or T-Macs Bowen and Artest had to deal with. Moreover, add to that fact that Rodman was still asked to grab 15-18 rebounds a night.

You make it seem like the fact that he had little offensive responsibility and could focus just on defense and rebounding meant he isn't nearly as great as he's regarded. I certainly challenge that notion.

[DPG21920]

The fact people on ST reply to this stuff seriously continues to blow my mind.

[ElNono]

Have any of those teams other than Boston won a championship since using these 'advanced statistics'? Next.

Irrelevant. LOL @ moving the goalposts now that you got owned.

So now you agree that some NBA teams do use advanced statistics as part of their decision process...

zero credibility...

And did Boston acquire KG and Ray Allen based upon Defensive Win Shares and Defensive Rating? Dismissed.

Please describe what the Boston Celtics decision process is. Be specific.

[JamStone]

The fact people on ST reply to this stuff seriously continues to blow my mind.

The topic is actually a good debate though, regardless if it started as a troll thread.

[Sense]

Just think of it this way.... if Tim Duncan's only job was to defend he'd pretty much rape Rodman I believe... but the fact that he had to carry the team offensively as well has to affect the argument.

[JamStone]

Just think of it this way.... if Tim Duncan's only job was to defend he'd pretty much rape Rodman I believe... but the fact that he had to carry the team offensively as well has to affect the argument.

Disagree.

[ElNono]

However, do you really believe it's comparable to carrying the load offensively, while also being the defensive anchor and rebounder on the team?..I don't think it's comparable, and I don't think I'm insulting Rodman by making a statement of that kind..

This. To me it's Duncan because he was able to do it for longer and at the same time having to work hard carrying the team on the other end also.

That doesn't mean Rodman wasn't a beast. To me he was hands down the best rebounder I've ever seen. Better than TD on that. That said, if you're looking at the complete career body of work, I think Duncan edges out.

[midnightpulp]

Lol Shaolin got from the ESPN boards.

Don't worry, you'll have plenty of fun here. There's plenty of other Lakers homers for you to engage in sexual activity with.

Hit up Koolaid_Man and Lakaluva.

[Koolaid_Man]

Of course, if you buy into some of the advanced metrics, they'd readily dispute your mostly subjective analysis.

For instance, in Defensive Rating, which measures points allowed per 100 possessions, Duncan is far superior. Duncan's DRtg is 94.92pts/100poss, which is 2nd all-time; Rodman's is 100.26pts/100poss, which is 52nd all-time.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...tg_career.html

Or in Defensive Win Shares, Duncan is 7th all-time (81.70), while Rodman is 32nd (54.46).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...ws_career.html

I don't give a what stats you post. The most important thing is that Duncan is done...His career is on the deep incline... le Contending days are over...that is all that I care about...

[Purch]

Did I just hear someone say Rodman wasn't a good defender.

Wow.

[Nathan89]

If rodman was a better defender it is because he didn't do on offense.

[Koolaid_Man]

Right off the bat I want to say Welcome to the good-spirited Better Defender debate. Please, only pure basketball reasoning to back up your opinion. No agendas, baby.

Dennis Rodman / Tim Duncan

Better defensive PF?

Defensive Rebounding = Rodman

Man to man defense (most important in the post) = Rodman

Team defense = Rodman by a hair

Rodman has 2 DPOY awards to Duncan's 0.

For those wondering, Rodman is also a 5 time champ trumping Duncan's 4 (or 3.5 depending on your source).

Rodman has never NOT repeated

Rodman won 2 in a row for Detroit

Rodman won 3 in a row with the Bulls

Rodman was the much better athlete, Top 10 athlete to ever play the game.


Am I saying it's a landslide? No, not entirely, although it may look that way based on facts laid out above.


-Duncan was the better shot blocker (which doesn't make up for everything else Rodman is better at on Defense). Duncan averaged one more block than Rodman. This makes much more sense when you look a little deeper though. Something to remember is that Duncan get's a lot of his blocks from the weakside, hardly ever gets blocks on his own man. Not chopping his legs off here, just stating a fact. :-)


-Duncan played more minutes than Rodman. Even out those minutes and Rodman's "stats" are much more impressive.

I say Rodman...hands down; however, and it's a big however,

To be "fair" in my assessment - all bull aside here..on tha real...Rodman had an unfair advantage. It is commonly known amongst NBA players during his era that he would use "sexual tactics" on the court that allowed him to dominate the boards.

Why do you think Alonzo Mourning would completely lose it when he played Rodman...Let me explain.

I will give you an example: Zo comes down he posts up Rodman and as he's backing him down or backs into him Rodman's is on hard and he whispers in Zo's ear: " Did you feel all that meat Zo". Zo would go ape nuts and lose his mind. Rodman did this frequently against opponents and it allowed him to clear space because most people didn't really want to with him and his crazy ass antics. But that got the job done and I'd pick him just to check Duncan and I think he'd easily render Duncan's game lame. -- no real talk...

This fight was much more than what your eyes can see:

[Chieflion]

They have DPOYs, so they must be the best defensive player in the league argument can only be presented by idiots like this tool. And what does championships have to do with how great a defender is? Props to FromWayDowntown for ting on this pathetic troll.

Like Jamstone, I also think this is a worthwhile debate. As a defensive anchor, this is not even close. Is Duncan able to chase guards around the court? I don't think so, but Rodman can. Is that what an anchor traditionally does? An interior defensive anchor needs to provide interior help defense and seal off the paint, not allowing easy scores. Tim Duncan easily does this better than Rodman, which is why he is a better defensive player.

Yes, people like to point out that Tim Duncan had Bruce Bowen beside him and early in his career, David Robinson. Forget David Robinson, Duncan's best defensive year came the year after Robinson retired. So, his best defensive year, had Bruce Bowen. Let's not act like Rodman has never been a part of David Robinson's Spurs. His DRtg is a mediocre 100 on David Robinson's Spurs, when compared to great defensive players.

Rodman, as good as a defender he was, never achieved lesser than a DRtg than 95. Jamstone said that the rating is influenced by his other teammates' themselves, which I don't disagree with. But his teammates on the Bad Boy Pistons, Jamstone would know better than me, David Robinson's Spurs, David Robinson was an excellent defensive anchor, so it is not as if he had bad defensive teammates. Rodman was also on the 3-peat Bulls like the idiot OP pointed out, they had Scottie Pippen and Michael Jordan on the perimeter, though past their prime were still terrific defenders (Pippen specifically) so it is not as if he had bad defensive teammates there too.

[hitmanyr2k]

Just think of it this way.... if Tim Duncan's only job was to defend he'd pretty much rape Rodman I believe... but the fact that he had to carry the team offensively as well has to affect the argument.

Nah. Duncan doesn't have the athleticism or lateral movement to play the kind of defense Dennis did during his career. Offense or no offense I don't think you'd see any difference in Duncan's defense. He was never asked to do the same things as Dennis and even if he were asked I don't think he could.

[hitmanyr2k]

They have DPOYs, so they must be the best defensive player in the league argument can only be presented by idiots like this tool. And what does championships have to do with how great a defender is? Props to FromWayDowntown for ting on this pathetic troll.

Like Jamstone, I also think this is a worthwhile debate. As a defensive anchor, this is not even close. Is Duncan able to chase guards around the court? I don't think so, but Rodman can. Is that what an anchor traditionally does? An interior defensive anchor needs to provide interior help defense and seal off the paint, not allowing easy scores. Tim Duncan easily does this better than Rodman, which is why he is a better defensive player.

Yes, people like to point out that Tim Duncan had Bruce Bowen beside him and early in his career, David Robinson. Forget David Robinson, Duncan's best defensive year came the year after Robinson retired. So, his best defensive year, had Bruce Bowen. Let's not act like Rodman has never been a part of David Robinson's Spurs. His DRtg is a mediocre 100 on David Robinson's Spurs, when compared to great defensive players.

Rodman, as good as a defender he was, never achieved lesser than a DRtg than 95. Jamstone said that the rating is influenced by his other teammates' themselves, which I don't disagree with. But his teammates on the Bad Boy Pistons, Jamstone would know better than me, David Robinson's Spurs, David Robinson was an excellent defensive anchor, so it is not as if he had bad defensive teammates. Rodman was also on the 3-peat Bulls like the idiot OP pointed out, they had Scottie Pippen and Michael Jordan on the perimeter, though past their prime were still terrific defenders (Pippen specifically) so it is not as if he had bad defensive teammates there too.

A defensive rating of 100 is damn good. There's nothing mediocre about it. In fact it's excellent for guys of Rodman's size or perimeter players. I don't see how in the you could ask Rodman to have a defensive rating of below 95 It's unheard of for guys his size to have a defensive rating that great. That kind of rating is usually reserved for seven foot centers.

[ezau]

Yeah, yeah, we get it OP. You want to troll us and say that the Rodman was clearly the better player than Duncan. Does that mean that Rodman is now the greatest power forward of all time? tee, hee

[Drachen]

All of which means absolutely nothing in this debate.

Sorry, FromWayDowntown, but the NBA does not hand out Defensive Win Share awards or Defensive Rating awards. They are flawed stats - nothing more and nothing less.

That you would bring this to the table in a debate makes me

Only people who CAN'T understand the game themselves rely on silly flawed stats to formulate an opinion.

Hah, this guy is funny, deriding someone using stats in a "debate" where stats are really the only thing he relied on.

[ezau]

Rodman is now the greatest power forward of all time because he's got 5 rings to Duncan's 4. That means Robert Horry>MJ>Kobe>Duncan, tee, hee. Horrible troll attempt IMHO

[tbonewalker]

Also, Duncan is not even the best defensive big man of his era. KG and Ben Wallace are ahead of him. And Rodman was better than both of those guys. Sorry Spur s, you guys have lost another one, and have once again failed.

Sup lakaluva?

lakaluva IN THE HOUSE!!!!

I created this thread because I knew it was a good topic and turns out it is very telling. By telling I mean it revealed who is a homer and who can recognize game.