Better Defender: Dennis Rodman or Tim Duncan

[JamStone]

AK-47 isn't nearly what he used to be. He could have had a great chance to revive his career if that Melo trade went through though.

Still, AK-47 couldn't lock guys up like, for example, Artest.

I'd disagree with that. In his first few seasons, Kirilenko was on the same level as Artest and Bowen when it came to locking up perimeter players. Not necessarily better, perhaps not as good, but at the same level, in the same neighborhood.

Part of what was so impressive with Kirilenko's man defense is that he did not rely on physical tactics the way Bowen and Artest would. Kirilenko relied on his length and quickness more than bumping and elbowing and grabbing shorts and the like. Used his long arms and legs and lateral quickness to really stick players. He wasn't necessarily the same type of lockdown defenders as Artest and Bowen. But I certainly do think he was the same caliber.

[hitmanyr2k]

Being the best wing defender doesn't make him the best overall defender.

It's like saying in the early 2000s, Jason Kidd had established himself as the best point guard for years and deserved to have won at least 1 MVP in those early 2000s. No, because there were better players at other positions, guys like Tim and Shaq.

You can easily argue Bowen shouldn't have at least 1 DPOY because there was a guy named Ben Wallace who was more dominant defensively during the time Bruce was the premier wing defender.

That's pretty much the reason Scottie never won DPOY even though he's widely regarded as one of (if not the best) best perimeter defenders ever. He played in the best defensive big man era ever. With players like Hakeem, Robinson, and Mutombo in their primes it was damn near impossible for a perimeter player to win the DPOY unless they did a shameless player/coach DPOY campaign like Payton and George Karl did in '96.

[DJB]

Of course, if you buy into some of the advanced metrics, they'd readily dispute your mostly subjective analysis.

For instance, in Defensive Rating, which measures points allowed per 100 possessions, Duncan is far superior. Duncan's DRtg is 94.92pts/100poss, which is 2nd all-time; Rodman's is 100.26pts/100poss, which is 52nd all-time.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...tg_career.html

Or in Defensive Win Shares, Duncan is 7th all-time (81.70), while Rodman is 32nd (54.46).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...ws_career.html

OP got owned.

[Phenomanul]

Kobe 14 seasons
Bruce 12 seasons

Kobe 8 1st team all defense in 14 seasons = 57.1%
Kobe 10 all defense (1st or 2nd team) in 14 seasons = 71.4%

Bruce 5 1st team all defense in 12 seasons = 41.7%
Bruce 8 all defense (1st or 2nd team) in 12 seasons = 66.7%

Is Kobe Bryant the better defender?

I know you're not being purposefully disingenuous, but Bowen didn't enter the NBA until the ripe old age of 25. Bryant, age 18. The comparison at this point (while Kobe's career has yet to end) will be skewed... (I guess I should have stated that outright)...

Bowen earned all of his selections after the age of 28 and his last at the age of 36... Kobe will end up with more (likely based on reputation) but not because he's continually asked to defend the opposing team's best perimeter player game after game (and not miss a game to boot).... it will be a feat if Kobe manages to earn additional 1st or 2nd team All-Defensive selections past the age of 34...

That said, your point is taken...

[tbonewalker]

I'd disagree with that. In his first few seasons, Kirilenko was on the same level as Artest and Bowen when it came to locking up perimeter players. Not necessarily better, perhaps not as good, but at the same level, in the same neighborhood.

Part of what was so impressive with Kirilenko's man defense is that he did not rely on physical tactics the way Bowen and Artest would. Kirilenko relied on his length and quickness more than bumping and elbowing and grabbing shorts and the like. Used his long arms and legs and lateral quickness to really stick players. He wasn't necessarily the same type of lockdown defenders as Artest and Bowen. But I certainly do think he was the same caliber.

Ehh - I wouldn't go that far, champ. You mention Artest and Bowen? That's where the buck stops for me. Maybe I just need clarification from you.

Are you saying Bowen at his best defensively was on the same level as Artest at his best defensively?

I'll give you the 'Kirilenko/Bowen was in the same neighborhood as Artest for maybe a couple seasons'. But IMO he was never AS good as Artest defensively. Not even for a couple seasons when AK was at his physical peak. Might be a good topic, on it's own.

[JamStone]

I know you're not being purposefully disingenuous,

Oh, I was most certainly being purposely disingenuous. To make a point.

It goes back to what was initially argued about Duncan having the most all-defense honors and someone leaving him off of who they think belong on an all time defensive team. As you just agreed with Kobe, Duncan has been in the league a long time. And sometimes a recognized name will get the benefit of the doubt with these regular season honors.

And sometimes in a particular person's opinion, it might be more about how great a player is in their prime. Part of Duncan's greatness has been his longevity and his playing at an elite level for so many seasons right from his first season. If we talk about the greatest defenders in the history of the game in their primes, I don't think it would be a travesty to have big men like Rodman, Russell, Hakeem, Ben, Zo, Wilt being considered better defenders than Duncan even though Duncan has the most all-defense honors in the game.

That's where I was going with the Bowen/Kobe comparison.

[JamStone]

Ehh - I wouldn't go that far, champ. You mention Artest and Bowen? That's where the buck stops for me. Maybe I just need clarification from you.

Are you saying Bowen at his best defensively was on the same level as Artest at his best defensively?

I'll give you the 'Kirilenko/Bowen was in the same neighborhood as Artest for maybe a couple seasons'. But IMO he was never AS good as Artest defensively. Not even for a couple seasons when AK was at his physical peak. Might be a good topic, on it's own.

Ron Artest at his best was a defensive maniac. I was watching the NBA in the mid 2000s. I wouldn't argue that he wasn't better than both Bowen and Kirilenko when all three were at their very best defensively. But for me personally, I don't think Artest was so much more significantly better to put him in his own category.

Each at their best, Artest was probably the best of the three. Exceptional lateral quickness, strength, and quick hands. Very freakish (his lateral quickness especially) considering how much weight he walked around with. Bowen stuck on players like glue, would get in their shorts, tug, pull, clutch, grab, and push the limits of the defensive rules to gain every advantage. As I mentioned earlier Kirilenko probably used his length and quickness combination better than anyone I've personally watched play (I didn't watch Bill Russell or Wilt).

So yeah, I wouldn't argue if you said Artest was the best. But I don't think he was on a completely different level. Different styles as perimeter man defenders. But all around the same caliber. That's my opinion.

[lefty]

I want to have sex with Jamstone's posts

[tbonewalker]

Ron Artest at his best was a defensive maniac. I was watching the NBA in the mid 2000s. I wouldn't argue that he wasn't better than both Bowen and Kirilenko when all three were at their very best defensively. But for me personally, I don't think Artest was so much more significantly better to put him in his own category.

Each at their best, Artest was probably the best of the three. Exceptional lateral quickness, strength, and quick hands. Very freakish (his lateral quickness especially) considering how much weight he walked around with. Bowen stuck on players like glue, would get in their shorts, tug, pull, clutch, grab, and push the limits of the defensive rules to gain every advantage. As I mentioned earlier Kirilenko probably used his length and quickness combination better than anyone I've personally watched play (I didn't watch Bill Russell or Wilt).

So yeah, I wouldn't argue if you said Artest was the best. But I don't think he was on a completely different level. Different styles as perimeter man defenders. But all around the same caliber. That's my opinion.

Great post, agreed on many of your points (especially bold) and will not nitpick.

The underlined part, I put Artest (at his best) in the same category as Payton (at his best) and Jordan (at his best). In my book, the most dominant perimeter defenders have their own tier above the rest, just like the most dominant post defenders have a tier above the rest.

[HarlemHeat37]

- Kobe is certainly an overrated defender, Phil Jackson himself said Kobe didn't deserve some of his all-D selections..while he's still a very good 1 on 1 defender today(even though he rarely guards other good players), the other aspects of his defense are above average/average(backed up by the scouting stats, if I have to post them)..

- Artest was a better defender than Bowen in his prime IMO, Artest's 1-year peak was the best defense from a perimeter defender since Pippen/Jordan..however, Artest winning DPOY was undeserved..

Artest had a prime Jermaine O'Neal backing him..O'Neal led the Pacers in DWS and Drating..the Pacers defensive +/- was virtually identical between Artest and O'Neal, meaning they suffered just as much when either guy was off the floor..O'Neal's value as a defensive anchor was just as valuable, if not more, than Artest's value as an overall defender, even though he had an amazing season..

Do I think Jermaine was a better defender than Artest?..not necessarily, but I don't think Artest deserved DPOY over Tim Duncan or Ben Wallace for that season..

- I don't think Bowen deserved any of Ben Wallace's DPOYs, but I do think Duncan would have won Wallace's award in 2005 or 2006, but health got in the way..

The problem with Duncan in 2005 is that he only played 66 games, compared to Wallace's 74 games..if he plays 4-5 more games, he probably wins it, which is why I don't think Wallace winning the award was a false choice..

The Spurs were a better defensive team than the Pistons that season by a few Defensive Rating points..Duncan had the better defensive rating by a slight margin..he trailed Wallace in DWS by a whole WS, but obviously would have made up ground if he had played more games..

The Spurs were 9 points worse defensively with Duncan off the floor, while the Pistons were 3-4 points worse defensively with Ben off the floor..

So I don't have a problem with any of Ben Wallace's DPOY awards..

- Duncan absolutely should have won DPOY in 2007, arguably the biggest snub in NBA history..he led the NBA in defensive rating and DWS, top 5 in BPG..the Spurs were 7 points worse defensively with Duncan off the floor, while the Nuggets were 2 points BETTER defensively with Camby off the floor..

- While I feel the same way about Ben Wallace as I do about Rodman, which is that he has it a lot easier due to his offensive responsibility, I do find that he's underrated by most people IMO..a lot of people didn't seem to realize that we witnessed one of the greatest defensive players of all-time in Ben Wallace..

[tbonewalker]

- Artest was a better defender than Bowen in his prime IMO, Artest's 1-year peak was the best defense from a perimeter defender since Pippen/Jordan..however, Artest winning DPOY was undeserved..

Yet you went on to do the worst job of backing that absurd statement up.

Artest had a prime Jermaine O'Neal backing him..O'Neal led the Pacers in DWS and..

DWS? Defensive Win Shares? When people start throwing around stats like Defensive Win Shares as a main point , I seriously question whether or not they ever picked up a basketball in their life. Care to remove your head from the pile 'o stat?

Seriously, this is your way of explaining how Artest winning DPOY was undeserved?

[HarlemHeat37]

That was just one part of my argument..you can hate DWS if you want, but it's an accurate measure of tiers for defensive performance, especially with big men..of course there are exceptions and flaws, just like every stat, but it's a good measure for the most part..I'm not using it as a primary argument..generally speaking, a defensive anchor is always more valuable than an individual defender, and that alone should be good enough for you to accept an argument..

Jermaine O'Neal was a legit defensive anchor that season..his defensive stats were up there with guys like Ben Wallace, Duncan and Garnett for that season..whether you hate those stats or not, when they put him in a category that isn't too far from those guys, you can't really ignore it..

Again, as I said, O'Neal and Artest had virtually the same defensive +/- that season, their value was pretty much the same from that standpoint..

My argument isn't Jermaine vs. Artest..it's pointing out the fact that Ron Artest won the award over guys like Ben Wallace, Duncan and Garnett, despite being just an elite perimeter defender on a team that also had a legit defensive anchor that was arguably just as good, or better, for that particular season..all of those guys(Wallace, Duncan, KG) were more valuable to their teams than Artest was that season from a defensive standpoint, and it isn't arguable IMO..

What is your argument for why Artest deserved the award?..I'm expecting an unquantifiable argument anyways..

[phyzik]

I have to say....

For this post starting out as a troll job, it has turned into one of the better discussions in the NBA forum. Some really good, thought out takes in here.... Sprinkled with typical Laker trolling from Cully and his bunch... still, its been a pretty decent discussion.

[Giuseppe]

The Skunker withstanding.

[BoricuaCJA]

Jamstone #1 poster on Spurstalk!!!

[dbreiden83080]

Sounds like someone is limited to the Spurs blinders perspective.

When I think of Dennis I think Detroit Pistons in his younger days and in Chicago in his latter days.

That said, Dennis Rodman is the superior defender and his multiple Defensive Player of the Year awards serve as a great support of this.

Read this and be quiet...

Of course, if you buy into some of the advanced metrics, they'd readily dispute your mostly subjective analysis.

For instance, in Defensive Rating, which measures points allowed per 100 possessions, Duncan is far superior. Duncan's DRtg is 94.92pts/100poss, which is 2nd all-time; Rodman's is 100.26pts/100poss, which is 52nd all-time.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...tg_career.html

Or in Defensive Win Shares, Duncan is 7th all-time (81.70), while Rodman is 32nd (54.46).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...ws_career.html

[phyzik]

The Skunker withstanding.

No worries cully, keep bringing the flavor and e....

[Giuseppe]

Let us proceed...

[Thomas82]

Also, Rodman was known to gamble on defense just for the sake of padding his rebound numbers... Duncan's not a stat-padder by any sense of the word....

That's a big part of why we lost to the Rockets in the '95 playoffs.

[Giuseppe]

& because Robinson was too busy playing Billy Graham.

[ynh]

Someone keeps on throwing up these pages as proof that duncan is a better defender

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...ws_career.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...tg_career.html


The one where Defensive Win Shares is shown and Duncan is 7th all-time while Rodman is 32nd.

My biggest issue with this is the fact that going by this stat is has Karl Malone as 5th.. now I'm not sure how many of you think Karl Malone would be a better defender than either Duncan or Rodman but that's what this stat says.

The other page of stats has Patrick Ewing as a better defender than Garnett, Jabbar, and Mourning.. Oh and Greg Ostertag is better than Rodman on this.

[ynh]

OH and the first has Patrick Ewing right under Duncan at 8th. Is there a good explaination for all of this or is it because these breakdowns are somewhat flawed.

[Chieflion]

OH and the first has Patrick Ewing right under Duncan at 8th. Is there a good explaination for all of this or is it because these breakdowns are somewhat flawed.

Because you took career Defensive win shares. Just take the individual season defensive win shares or see how many games and minutes they played.

[ynh]

That's better.. was only using the page and stats that the individual was speaking of.. Didn't see that there though so thanks.

lol kinda funny though 214 Rasho Nesterovich

[Phenomanul]

Someone keeps on throwing up these pages as proof that duncan is a better defender

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...ws_career.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...tg_career.html


The one where Defensive Win Shares is shown and Duncan is 7th all-time while Rodman is 32nd.

My biggest issue with this is the fact that going by this stat is has Karl Malone as 5th.. now I'm not sure how many of you think Karl Malone would be a better defender than either Duncan or Rodman but that's what this stat says.

The other page of stats has Patrick Ewing as a better defender than Garnett, Jabbar, and Mourning.. Oh and Greg Ostertag is better than Rodman on this.

One thing of note is that Duncan and Robinson are the only two teamates in the top 10... though their defense was synergistic, having been teammates actually would tend to lower the defensive win share value of the other (counterintuitive but check out the calculation method)...