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ing EPIC ENDING!!!!!!!!!
Calling Duncan a top ten player is being a homer? Calling Ginobili around a top fifteen player is being a homer? You act like I called them two top five players.
ing EPIC ENDING!!!!!!!!!
You still have to get through the regular season to start the playoffs. Ginobili is unpredictable in that terms and while you can't entirely rely on Duncan anymore because he is past his prime. I think it is really crazy to say that SA can defend like Boston
Except I never said that.
I have no problem with anyone taking me to task for something I said. What I have a problem with is when people fail to comprehend what I said and instead resort to making things up. Get it right.
What stopper did they have last season???? They were still #1 defense in the NBA. And Perkins has 82 games to feel better. We simply don't have anybody as rugged as him to tandem with TD.
I don't see it. Rondo is a top defender at the point. Pierce is a pretty tough dude. They have two battle-tested defensive towers in the middle. They don't have room for error, as seen when Garnett went down, and the fact they're also getting up there in age but when they're all available, they can play serious D.
Our perimeter defense is average at best. I would actually feel better if our wing situation would be anything close to decent, but it's alarming from a defensive standpoint. Our interior D turns to pretty pathetic once TD sits down, and TD simply can't play that many minutes anymore. We're going to have to make incredible big strides to become anything remotely close to the brand of defense the Celtics play. Namely, RJ has to stop playing that lax, soft defense. TP needs to also be much more aggressive defensively. And inside, you need to hope rookie Tiago is anything close to Perkins. Because McDyess is not going to turn into something like him at this point.
I mean, stranger things might have happened, but right now I'm pretty skeptic.
For the umpteenth time, they had T. Allen and they had a healthy Perkins.
The Celtics have better defensive personnel, no question. But I don't see it as being better by leaps and bounds. That doesn't guarantee that the Spurs personnel plays to their potential defensively, though.
To clarify, I mean close in terms of rankings, not necessarily efficiency. Their was a 7.5 differential in efficiency last season and that may not change drastically this season, but it doesn't mean the Spurs can't come a few spots closer to being top five (they were ninth last season).
Tony Allen averaged 16 mins. The perimeter D for Boston was mainly Rondo/Pierce/Ray Allen. With Ray being the designated Kobe stopper in the Finals and making a commendable job at it. And I personally don't consider an injury having a weakness necessarily. That stuff is simply unexpected. We have had the same problems in seasons past. I'm sure Perkins will come around. It's a long season. To me a weakness is what we have at SF from a defensive standpoint. Injury or not, we've a hole there. And BTW, I'm not looking for another Bowen. But what we have right now averaging 30+ mins can't possibly get it done.
To me, the bar is set by the Lakers and the Celtics. And right now I see a lot less glaring holes there than I see on this Spurs roster. The Spurs simply have a very long ways to get to that level of defense, and I'm skeptic we can get there with this personnel. Obviously, a lot of things can happen. Injuries, trades, etc. I'm just giving you my impression at this point in time.
About the other two teams you mentioned, I haven't seen anything about Miami yet, so I really can't say how they're going to do. I expect them to curbstomp over a lot of teams, but defensively you just don't know. The Magic will depend on how they use Howard to protect the rim. They've been up and down on that.
I'm aware of how many minutes he played. He was still their stopper and played a key role. Having an injury isn't a weakness, but it can and often does negatively impact a team. I don't think they're going to plummet from 2nd to 12th without Perkins, but nonetheless it's a loss for the time being.
The Spurs have one glaring hole. You can argue that it's more glaring than the Celtics', that's fair, but let's not act like this team has 50 things wrong with them and the gap between the Lakers and Celtics to Spurs is gargantuan.
Don't give me the "swept in the 2nd round" excuse. The '09 Suns missed the playoffs. The '10 Suns took the Lakers to game 6 of the Conference Finals and they did it with largely the same team (Frye was the one notable addition).
That Suns series was fools gold.
Every game that series went dead even (or relatively close) going into the 4th quarter.
Spurs perimeter defense then went to crap due to the amount of minutes (exhaustion) they had to play because of how terrible Mason and Bogans had been. This issue also hurt the Spurs overall offensive execution in the 4th, as Manu and Tony were responsible to execute the majority of the plays while they were extremely gassed.
If Spurs had a half decent bench and if one shot here or there doesn't go in at crucial times for the Suns-- The series could have easily been 2-2 or even 3-1 Spurs.
Saying Spurs are significant behind the league's " elite" based off a 4-0 fools gold loss to the Suns is pretty foolish.
That series was a lot closer than a 4-0.
If you have to depend on other teams having injuries, then you have bigger problems. You can't plan like that. You plan like everyone is going to be healthy and then you let things play out.
As far as Perkins, all the Celtics have to worry about is getting to the playoffs. They *KNOW* that Perkins will be back and their defense will ultimately get back to their standards. I see the Celts a lot like the Spurs of a couple of years ago. Where they didn't worry much about HCA because they knew they had enough defense to win on the road. They'll lose that swagger and confidence when they can't sustain that level of defensive excellence anymore, but that just hasn't happened yet.
There's definitely one that's glaring. There are others that are not as glaring, but they're still somewhat important. The help for Timmy inside is pretty important, and we're kinda going into the season without really having an answer there. Maybe Tiago will be the answer? Let's hope so, but it's far from a sure thing.
Is it a gargantuan difference between the Spurs defense and the current bar? I wouldn't call it gargantuan. But I'll say that the Spurs have their work cut out for them to get there. And it's going to be seriously difficult to get there unless some players change their defensive game around and the rook is exceptionally good. As I said earlier, it's early, and stranger things have happened.
I won't give you any excuses, but let's get some things straight: The second round sweep happened, it's not an excuse. And the '09 Suns had a change of coach mid-season (Porter left with a 28-23 record), Shaq played 75 games for them (surprise, surprise, a piece that didn't fit), and they traded for Jason Richardson 30 games into the season.
Nobody actually said that. TD21 suggested it, and you brought it up.
And honestly, I didn't think anybody had any doubts who the best team was once the sweep was over. I'm sure the revisionist history would like to say otherwise. But feel free to talk yourself into whatever you want.
Before you go on implying what I said, I never said Spurs were the best team. I just explained the series was a lot closer than one would indicate by looking at just the "scoreboard".
Actually, the scoreboards for the most part were fairly close. And for stretches, so were the games. But really, props to the Suns because I don't think we even got them rattled, even when playing in San Antonio against the battle-tested Spurs. They were confident throughout.
The question is, if you can't draw conclusions from the playoffs, on a series that clearly exposed your weaknesses, then what are you going to draw conclusions from?
Who said anything about depending on other teams having injuries? I said Perkins is injured, is projected to be until February and when he get's back, he'll be coming off a significant injury and trying to play catch-up. So for a lot of this season, the Celtics will not have Perkins and even when he get's back, who's to say he's ever 100% this season? The O'Neal's aren't his equal defensively.
The Spurs have one of the best big rotations in the league and the best back court in the league. They have one glaring hole.There's definitely one that's glaring. There are others that are not as glaring, but they're still somewhat important. The help for Timmy inside is pretty important, and we're kinda going into the season without really having an answer there. Maybe Tiago will be the answer? Let's hope so, but it's far from a sure thing.
Is it a gargantuan difference between the Spurs defense and the current bar? I wouldn't call it gargantuan. But I'll say that the Spurs have their work cut out for them to get there. And it's going to be seriously difficult to get there unless some players change their defensive game around and the rook is exceptionally good. As I said earlier, it's early, and stranger things have happened.
There is no bar you have to be at defensively to be a legit contender. Obviously, you've got to be amongst the best in the league, but you don't have to be at the exact level of the Celtics or Lakers.
It's not about players changing their defensive game around, it's about personnel. It's one thing to be a good team defender, but as far as man defense, particularly on the perimeter and even more so on the wings, you have to have the physical tools to go with the mindset. Someone like Simmons can try hard and watch as much film of Bowen as he likes, the reality is he's not nearly laterally quick or mobile enough to be anything close to a stopper.
But just because that was the result last season, it doesn't automatically mean it will be this season or that it's this team's ceiling. I gave you the Suns example. The Nuggets are another. Swept in the 1st round by the Lakers in '08, then in '09 pushed the Lakers to game 6 in the Conference Finals. They did add Billups, but they also lost Iverson. Obviously an upgrade, but it's not like they went from Carter to Billups.I won't give you any excuses, but let's get some things straight: The second round sweep happened, it's not an excuse. And the '09 Suns had a change of coach mid-season (Porter left with a 28-23 record), Shaq played 75 games for them (surprise, surprise, a piece that didn't fit), and they traded for Jason Richardson 30 games into the season.
We'll see when Perk comes back. He's 25 and there's been plenty of players that have been able to play just fine after such injury (especially players that are not so mobile, like Perk).
BTW, one O'Neal (Jermaine) is no Perkins, but he's not bad at all either.
If anything, the Celtics addressed the potential Perkins issue by getting a 6-time NBA All-Star, and multiple All-NBA second and third team player (this is Jermaine I'm talking about, not Shaq).
I personally think they're top 3 in the backcourt. Top 10 up front *IF* they play to their potential. I still have a lot of questions about the front court rotation.
Considering the offensive output of this team, what do you think the Spurs need to be ranked at defensively? Top 3? Top 5? Top 10? There's obviously a bar. Might not be Top 1.
If I have to look at last year, I would say we need to get back at Top 3, maybe Top 5, to really contend.
I'm not even looking for a stopper. To me, the Bruce Bowen pipedream was over when we resigned RJ. Unless we can trade for an actual stopper and are willing to play him for 25+ mins a night, we just won't have one. Whoever gets the 14 or so minutes behind RJ, simply won't have enough time to make an impact defensively, IMO. That means guys like RJ are going to have to be able to do a decent job guarding guys like Lebron, Durant, Odom and the like. Which implies changing his defensive game around from what we've seen last season.
We could discuss the difference between those Nuggets teams too, if you want. But it's really pointless because I haven't used the sweep as the excuse of anything. Neither I have claimed that the Spurs ceiling is the second round. I think there's conclusions to be taken from the sweep, and I think the Spurs are aware of it (at least, they've publicly stated so). I'm not ready to say what this team ceiling is right now. Maybe 10 or so games into the season. Trades and injuries can change the landscape completely as far what the ceiling is too.
We're discussing what we think today based on what we have seen and what we know. There can be pessimistic views, there can be a optimist view, we can agree or not in certain areas. Everybody can be right and wrong, since we're merely speculating.
Jermaine O'Neal is a s of his former self. When was the last time he was an all-star?
Cosigned.
the Celtics' D is going to take a big step backwards with Tony Allen leaving. i think they'll be in a very similar position to the Spurs.
a guy like Dahntay Jones would be great for the Spurs. i'd give up George Hill for that guy. i don't don't know if the cotracts match or anything.
wow, I wouldn't.
Anyways, Jones is making 2.5 this season (8.1 through 11-12), Spurs would have to throw in more salary to make it work.
I gather you haven't watched O'Neal (Jermaine) in recent years, if you're resorting to bringing up his resume, which has no bearing on the type of player he is today, since he's nowhere near that level. Today, he's an injury prone stiff, who can't rebound and shoots a low percentage from the field for a big man.
Top 3? Name a better back court than Ginobili, Parker, Hill. Top 10 up front? The quality of their depth, 1-5 and the fact that they have a top three all around big man, makes them one of the best big rotations in the league.I personally think they're top 3 in the backcourt. Top 10 up front *IF* they play to their potential. I still have a lot of questions about the front court rotation.
Probably no lower than 6th. But they don't necessarily have to be in the top 3. In the past, they had to be, because the team was so limited in so many other areas.Considering the offensive output of this team, what do you think the Spurs need to be ranked at defensively? Top 3? Top 5? Top 10? There's obviously a bar. Might not be Top 1.
If I have to look at last year, I would say we need to get back at Top 3, maybe Top 5, to really contend.
There aren't that many actual stoppers in the league. At the least, the Spurs need someone who can do a reasonable impression of a stopper. You can play roughly 15 mpg and make an impact defensively. Just look at T. Allen. You're right though, in the end Jefferson is more than likely going to have to do a passable job guarding the bigger SF's, because he's the one who's going to spend the bulk of the minutes guarding them.I'm not even looking for a stopper. To me, the Bruce Bowen pipedream was over when we resigned RJ. Unless we can trade for an actual stopper and are willing to play him for 25+ mins a night, we just won't have one. Whoever gets the 14 or so minutes behind RJ, simply won't have enough time to make an impact defensively, IMO. That means guys like RJ are going to have to be able to do a decent job guarding guys like Lebron, Durant, Odom and the like. Which implies changing his defensive game around from what we've seen last season.
Billups was the primary difference. But I don't buy that he singlehandedly improved them to that extent. You and others, have acted like the Spurs can't be taken seriously this season because of how last season ended. I've given two recent examples of how little that means (and let's face it, the Spurs look better than the Suns or Nuggets did going into those seasons).We could discuss the difference between those Nuggets teams too, if you want. But it's really pointless because I haven't used the sweep as the excuse of anything. Neither I have claimed that the Spurs ceiling is the second round. I think there's conclusions to be taken from the sweep, and I think the Spurs are aware of it (at least, they've publicly stated so). I'm not ready to say what this team ceiling is right now. Maybe 10 or so games into the season. Trades and injuries can change the landscape completely as far what the ceiling is too.
We're discussing what we think today based on what we have seen and what we know. There can be pessimistic views, there can be a optimist view, we can agree or not in certain areas. Everybody can be right and wrong, since we're merely speculating.
Nothing wrong with disagreeing. But if you believe they're not a contender, come right out and say they're not a contender. But stop this don't-write-them-off-completely-just-in-case-they-make-me-look-like-an idiot routine. You're not the only one doing it, either.
He averaged as many rebounds as Perkins last season, in the same amount of time, while scoring more than him. They're basically even in DWS (Perk up by 0.4), where Jermain is a much better offensive player.
I agree he's injury prone though.
Rondo, Allen, West.
I suspect Lebron will play some point in Miami also, like he did in Cleveland. Which would make a Lebron/Wade/Miller back court better.
And there's backcourts such as Bibby/Johnson/Crawford, Curry/Ellis/Bell, Miller/Roy/Bayless, Nash/Richardson/Childress that are arguably as good.
I still rank ours over those, but it's not that clear cut anymore. We'll see how Tony comes back.
Let's see... Duncan is Duncan, and even on the decline, he's still very effective. No doubt there. I love Blair, and he never stops being relentless, plus he looks committed and his energy will definitely help hiding his lack of size. I'm a believer there. The starting bigs look good.
Dice is still good when he decides to play, which lately is pretty much the playoffs. I don't have a problem with that. My only question is if he's getting too long in the tooth, and what happens if he can't flip the switch anymore when we need him (like Horry's last season). Time will tell. After that, we need to talk about potential. I mean, Tiago has played exactly zero minutes of NBA ball. He has spent 3 months, if that, with his new teammates and coach. Plus he's already banged up. I don't know what to tell you about him. I have more questions than certainties. Bonner, as far as defense goes, is useless, IMO. He should be at this spot, 5th big, and play situational minutes. Unfortunately, being that we're mostly an old team and we're going to need to rest our vets, and that Tiago is a big question mark at this point, I can easily see him being the 4th or even 3rd big. Which IMO is a bad sign as far our interior defense goes.
Fair enough. I agree this team probably can have an easier time scoring 100 points than in the past.
I'm just looking at the amount of minutes most top perimeter players play these days (which are the kind of players you would need to throw a stopper at). You will rarely see Lebron, Durant, Kobe, Wade, Paul, Rose, etc play less than 35-32 mins. I'm not saying you need a stopper all the time with those guys, but even if you cut it by 1/3, it's still 20 mins. There's a reason Bowen averaged 30+ mpg for us on our peak years when he basically had just that role. Sure, we're more talented offensively now, but I can't think you can cut that more than 1/3 and still be effective.
It was a combination of both getting Billups, and jettisoning Iverson.
It really was addressing a need for that team, because the raw talent was always there, but there was no brain behind the wheel.
For example, Iverson shot more than Carmelo that last season he was there. Billups instead took second seat, let Carmelo be the star, and gave that team a floor general to better use guys like JR Smith, who has a lot of talent, but is a mental midget. The fact that they also picked up the Birdman and shored up their defensive depth on the interior didn't hurt either.
You've been trying to play this card for 3 posts now, and the only one to bring up the sweep has been you. You can go back and look up my posts in last season's preseason (way before the sweep), and you'll read the exact same reservations about the state of our defense in general, and the role of guys like Bonner or Finley in particular.
I don't have a magic ball. I don't know if there's going to be injuries or trades that will change what the team looks like compared to right now.
I don't know how Tiago is going to look. I don't know what Anderson will bring to the table. Will they be great or busts? Too many unanswered questions.
Maybe you already know how everything will play out...
Some of us don't, and are not ready to proclaim this team a contender in October, but are also not ready to write them off in October. Maybe we need a dozen or so games to see what this team really looks like.
And while we're talking about looking like an idiot, pretending that people stop doing something on a forum just because you say so is actually pretty high up there in the re ed department.
1% of animals have thumbs?
Didn't think this thread would be complete without me.
On the other hand, after having read half the thread, this may be one of the better discussions I have seen here. I find myself nodding a lot as I read. Have to finish reading before really saying anything important though.
Don't forget about the 2000 Lakers.
Swept by the Spurs (2d round) in '99, NBA champs the next year.
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