Here's the Real Reason Independents Have Turned Against the Democrats

[ElNono]

It's the same old disconnect. Different discourses, same end result. You always end up feeling you're getting screwed by either party.

[baseline bum]

So the monkeys are hitting switches, ANY switch, in the hopes that by random chance Shakespeare's Opus will materialize on the other end.

That's the best description I have ever heard for American elections.

[Cry Havoc]

Wait, what? I thought you were just giving me about how Clinton did good for our economy? Why don't you look at who signed Gramm–Leach–Bliley.

Clinton started untying the shoestrings.

Bush pulled and tugged on them until there were no strings left in the shoe, and then burned it.

I'm not absolving Clinton of responsibility, the way you are trying to heap all the blame on him to save the weight of that from breaking Bush's back. Bush took a good economy, albeit with some problems, and made nearly every single situation worse for the American people. He is not wholly to blame, but he shares the bulk of it for bungling around in the White House for 8 years.

[coyotes_geek]

The it was. He bent our nation over the table giving China most favored nation status, lying to our faces and telling us about what a great export opportunity it would be to sell to billions (who of course were dirt-poor and could never afford our exports). And his blind support of financial ``innovation'' is the direct cause of the enormous mess we're in now. Clinton, Greenspan, and Newt ed us all good.

The loss of American manufacturing jobs overseas started back in the 50s with the textiles industry. Clinton's dealings with China, at worst, merely accelerated a trend which was inevitable to begin with.

I'm with you on the financial stuff though.

The real reason people view Clinton so well now? They remember a burgeoning economy and a time before terrorism caused the dude at the airport checking your luggage to know that the exteneze in your luggage isn't working.

They're assocating Clinton with a happier time in this countries history much in the same way people look back at their teenage years with fondness after their innocence is lost.

Agree that's certainly part of the equation.

It's true that it might have the longest-lasting influence, yes, but that isn't nearly as devastating a blow to the economy as the de-regulation of the financial sector has been. Nothing really compares to that. When you are talking about hundreds of trillions (or even quadrillions) of dollars in assets being thrown around like they're candy, there's a huge problem there.

Agreed.

[DarkReign]

It's true that it might have the longest-lasting influence, yes, but that isn't nearly as devastating a blow to the economy as the de-regulation of the financial sector has been. Nothing really compares to that. When you are talking about hundreds of trillions (or even quadrillions) of dollars in assets being thrown around like they're candy, there's a huge problem there.

Totally agreed, the financial sector's collapse was extremely bad and is like 1a on the list, but exactly how many total jobs were lost directly from it?

None of this is directly directed at you, CH.

NAFTA has cost this country millions of jobs. Millions upon millions. NAFTA has employed more Canadians than it has Americans....Canada ing loves NAFTA!

Mexicans dont know any better, senor. They think its normal to have unelected drug cartels run your local government, no better than the ing wastes of flesh wandering the Middle East deserts looking to Islamic Extremists as saviors because they bring them food, unlike the elected government.

China. Ha. Haha. China. Their designs are to literally supplant the US as the world's sole superpower. They cannot achieve that goal without the US's help and we're dumb enough to do it because we're idiots.

NAFTA is the bane of this country's existence and is never talked about in the context that it should be because that would damage multi-trillion dollar companies from raping the uneducated workers of the world all with the blessing of the US government, subsidized on the backs of ignorant American taxpayers standing in unemployment lines wondering "How'd this happen?"

No offense, but lawyers dont produce . Nor do doctors. Nor do financial advisors, bankers, tax lawyers or any other glorified profession in this country. What do those people produce that can be sold to a non-American? Nothing, thats what.

[DarkReign]

The backbone of any healthy country is manufacturing of all kinds. It isnt glamorous and it doesnt have movies made about it that make the ins-and-outs of look excessively cool. , it doesnt even pay that much unless youre running the show. But you dont need 8 years of college to do it with all the resulting debt from that expensive education and you actually produce something tangible and useful.

Clothes, cars, metals, stampings, forgings, ingots, structures, frames, if this country wanted, microchips and other computer components. This list is never-ending, so I will end it here.

All that can be put in a package and sold to someone else, even a non-American. , a software designer at least produces something that can be sold, what does a lawyer sell? Boil it down, he sells advice.

What does a banker sell? Boil it down, advice. A doctor? boil it down, advice. You cant export what they do, so how the ing do Americans think that everyone in this country should be a lawyer/doctor/banker/insurance salesmen/insert white-collar job here? Who will be the clients for their advice, other lawyers, doctors and bankers?

This country has its collective head up its collectively large ass and to me, everyone seems so ignorant to the basic truths of it all, I dont really care anymore about any of you ers. Rot in , piss up a rope, take a big dive in a drained pool, more power to ya.

Im raping you when you aint looking. Im going to suck this country dry for all its worth at the expense of every single one my neighbors, , in spite of my national neighbors. Americans, in general, are unworthy of anything, that the collective plight of the dumb s in the unemployment lines causes me no chagrin, but more a smile creeps on my face.

Less for them, more for me. Its pretty obvious in my 30 years in this country that this is how it works. That some people (like a certain family member) have the gall to cry about whats fair or right has actually caused me to laugh in their face. I would do the same to a complete stranger with 3 kids and a tough story about the misfortunes of existence. you and your twisted sense of fairness, is what I would say.

Your government has sold people like you out for the sake of people you will never meet. Even if you did meet them, they wouldnt want you or accept you, so you might as well get real comfortable with life's giant sandwich because its going to be your dietary source until the day you wipe your miserable stain off this planet.

Im done. I stopped caring about 4 years ago and now I am completely devoid of an compassion for my fellow Americans. I dont care what happens to this country anymore than I care for what happens to geese that get separated from the flock heading south for the winter.

Things come, things go. You live, you die. What happens to you personally should be important, what happens to everyone else is of no bearing on you. So long as youre crafty, have a work ethic and a little luck, them, youll be fine. Help those you care about and step over the bodies of the ones you dont.

[coyotes_geek]

So what do we do when all those widgets we're allegedly going to manufacture and sell to non-Americans can be manufactured by non-Americans who are willing to work for a fraction of the cost that Americans will?

[EVAY]

Sad to say, I disagree with the narrative that the fiscal probity of he parties has much to do with the way people vote.

The GOP lost mostly on perceptions of incompetence and venality in 2006. Medicare part D really didn't figure into it, nor did deficit financed tax cuts, nor did the off-books budgeting of war so much as the crappy results.

The Dems are losing this time around because of the severity of the economic downturn and the snail's pace of the technical recovery, i.e., the perception that their policies are incompetent and out of touch. Also, the promised change did not materialize: what materialized was continuity with GWB.

In the main, self-described liberals and conservatives alike have trouble identifying what particular gov't programs they'd be willing to do without. The portion of voters who actually want smaller government is exaggerated by both sides.

I do believe that you have broken the code, WH.

[Winehole23]

Thx, but no way can I take credit for repeating what many others have said, even here in this forum.

(The counter-narrative I put forward works in a fairly well-worn rut, though admittedly, it is one that easily gets lost in the two-party scrum.)

[Cry Havoc]

DR, if NAFTA hurt the US so much, why is it helping Canada? They have many of the same standards for employment that we do.

[DarkReign]

So what do we do when all those widgets we're allegedly going to manufacture and sell to non-Americans can be manufactured by non-Americans who are willing to work for a fraction of the cost that Americans will?

Therein lies the quandry, no?

Youre either a protectionist (bad word) or youre not. No wrong answer, but when you see the effect with your own eyes...

[ElNono]

I don't agree that manufacturing is the end-all, be-all.
The US has been basically living off licensing or selling intangibles in the form of services/intellectual property/etc for nearly half a century.
That's the reason you see the extreme international lobbying and pushing for DMCA-like legislation worldwide.
Unfortunately, unless you're willing and capable of bullying regimes like China into some sort of democracy where their workers have a voice and vote, the manufacturing is not going to come back. Even pseudo-democratic countries are difficult to compete against, like Mexico.

[101A]

It's all relative.

Besides, the trend of manufacturing jobs heading overseas started long before Clinton, and just like every other president we've had/will have, it's something that's completely out of his control.

Not exactly.

Clinton made damn sure, despite Tianamen Square, that MFNS for China was established and maintained.

Where's Clinton from again?

Where's Wal-Mart from again?

Oh, yeah.

It had begun, but the Wal-Mart/China connection truly opened the flood-gates. , in the late '80 Wal-Mart used to run commercials bragging about how many made in USA products they sold.

I was young and naive once, (now older and slightly less naive); was all about the "free" markets; now I recognize that as the bull it is; Germany has it right; and is enjoying the rewards for the judicious use of protectionism.

[101A]

The backbone of any healthy country is manufacturing of all kinds. It isnt glamorous and it doesnt have movies made about it that make the ins-and-outs of look excessively cool. , it doesnt even pay that much unless youre running the show. But you dont need 8 years of college to do it with all the resulting debt from that expensive education and you actually produce something tangible and useful.

Clothes, cars, metals, stampings, forgings, ingots, structures, frames, if this country wanted, microchips and other computer components. This list is never-ending, so I will end it here.

All that can be put in a package and sold to someone else, even a non-American. , a software designer at least produces something that can be sold, what does a lawyer sell? Boil it down, he sells advice.

What does a banker sell? Boil it down, advice. A doctor? boil it down, advice. You cant export what they do, so how the ing do Americans think that everyone in this country should be a lawyer/doctor/banker/insurance salesmen/insert white-collar job here? Who will be the clients for their advice, other lawyers, doctors and bankers?

This country has its collective head up its collectively large ass and to me, everyone seems so ignorant to the basic truths of it all, I dont really care anymore about any of you ers. Rot in , piss up a rope, take a big dive in a drained pool, more power to ya.

Im raping you when you aint looking. Im going to suck this country dry for all its worth at the expense of every single one my neighbors, , in spite of my national neighbors. Americans, in general, are unworthy of anything, that the collective plight of the dumb s in the unemployment lines causes me no chagrin, but more a smile creeps on my face.

Less for them, more for me. Its pretty obvious in my 30 years in this country that this is how it works. That some people (like a certain family member) have the gall to cry about whats fair or right has actually caused me to laugh in their face. I would do the same to a complete stranger with 3 kids and a tough story about the misfortunes of existence. you and your twisted sense of fairness, is what I would say.

Your government has sold people like you out for the sake of people you will never meet. Even if you did meet them, they wouldnt want you or accept you, so you might as well get real comfortable with life's giant sandwich because its going to be your dietary source until the day you wipe your miserable stain off this planet.

Im done. I stopped caring about 4 years ago and now I am completely devoid of an compassion for my fellow Americans. I dont care what happens to this country anymore than I care for what happens to geese that get separated from the flock heading south for the winter.

Things come, things go. You live, you die. What happens to you personally should be important, what happens to everyone else is of no bearing on you. So long as youre crafty, have a work ethic and a little luck, them, youll be fine. Help those you care about and step over the bodies of the ones you dont.

Damn.

[MannyIsGod]

CNN's front page showed that 61% of the electorate decided on the economy. Pretty ing ridiculous how far out of touch the average voter is with reality. They hate the stimulus but they also don't like the state of the economy and expected more to happen.

[DarrinS]

CNN's front page showed that 61% of the electorate decided on the economy. Pretty ing ridiculous how far out of touch the average voter is with reality. They hate the stimulus but they also don't like the state of the economy and expected more to happen.

Maybe their reality is that they have a mortgage, kids, and have been unemployed for 20 months. Maybe their reality isn't being a college student with very few responsibilities.

[DarrinS]

I don't agree that manufacturing is the end-all, be-all.
The US has been basically living off licensing or selling intangibles in the form of services/intellectual property/etc for nearly half a century.
That's the reason you see the extreme international lobbying and pushing for DMCA-like legislation worldwide.
Unfortunately, unless you're willing and capable of bullying regimes like China into some sort of democracy where their workers have a voice and vote, the manufacturing is not going to come back. Even pseudo-democratic countries are difficult to compete against, like Mexico.

I'm going to have to agree with you on this.

[MannyIsGod]

Maybe their reality is that they have a mortgage, kids, and have been unemployed for 20 months. Maybe their reality isn't being a college student with very few responsibilities.

@ few responsibilities. Who pays my rent Darrin? Who pays for my meals? Who pays for me to get where I need to go? Who goes to work for me Darrin? Who does the hours of reading and studying I have to do? Who goes to school full time and holds down a nearly full time job? (4 hours a week from being full time - I work and go to school and still find enough time to be more informed unlike stupid asses such as yourself)

Tell me Darrin, What did those democrats in Congress do that caused all of this considering it started before most of them took office?

As I said, they're out of touch with reality.

[TeyshaBlue]

CNN's front page showed that 61% of the electorate decided on the economy. Pretty ing ridiculous how far out of touch the average voter is with reality. They hate the stimulus but they also don't like the state of the economy and expected more to happen.

Quan ative easing is much harder for the average Joe to grok than a fresh bouquet of $1000 bills in your checking account. Plus there's still the spectre of disconnect between stimulus and home budgets.

[DarrinS]

@ few responsibilities. Who pays my rent Darrin? Who pays for my meals? Who pays for me to get where I need to go? Who goes to work for me Darrin? Who does the hours of reading and studying I have to do? Who goes to school full time and holds down a nearly full time job? (4 hours a week from being full time - I work and go to school and still find enough time to be more informed unlike stupid asses such as yourself)

Tell me Darrin, What did those democrats in Congress do that caused all of this considering it started before most of them took office?

As I said, they're out of touch with reality.

I also put myself through school. I wish my life was as easy as it was back then. You'll feel the same way one day. Trust me. You are just responsible for yourself right now.

[MannyIsGod]

No doubt that its easier to see that you have no money in your bank than it is to understand economics but its not unreasonable to expect the population in this country to have a better understanding than "I have no money vote for the new guy!" which is EXACTLY what happened.

[DarrinS]

Is the current unemployment rate a reality?

[TeyshaBlue]

No doubt that its easier to see that you have no money in your bank than it is to understand economics but its not unreasonable to expect the population in this country to have a better understanding than "I have no money vote for the new guy!" which is EXACTLY what happened.

I think the disconnect is more like, "I have no money, but the ing banks do! Vote out the guys that did this."

[TeyshaBlue]

I also put myself through school. I wish my life was as easy as it was back then. You'll feel the same way one day. Trust me. You are just responsible for yourself right now.

Oh, please. My life is exponentially easier now than it was when I was pulling graveyard shifts frying burrito shaped objects at a Town and Country convenience store whilst pulling down 18 semester hours.

We're all just a little different, Darrin.

[DarrinS]

Oh, please. My life is exponentially easier now than it was when I was pulling graveyard shifts frying burrito shaped objects at a Town and Country convenience store whilst pulling down 18 semester hours.

We're all just a little different, Darrin.

Spare me. Unless you were in medical school or taking care of a family, college life is not difficult.