New Strategy in Afghanistan=GTFO

[Ashy Larry]

People that study foreign policy or management for a living have a term called "second order consequences". These things are indirect, often unintended results of direct actions.

Direct action: Funding mujahadeen to kill Soviet troops in Afghanistan.

Second order consequence: After Soviet pullout, the mujahadeen, the only people with military training and weapons, who also happen to be crude theocrats, form the Taliban government of Afghanistan. This government is openly sympathetic to AQ and its anti-western aims.

I don't want to be there anymore than you do.

I do feel it is necessary however. Mr. Paul is right. We can leave at any time.

But at what cost?

That's the slippery slope. It's obvious we're in a screwed up situation with this war. Like John Wooden usta say all the time "Failure to prepare is preparing to fail." We went into this with "shoot first, ask questions later" tactics and now we have no exit plan whatsoever. The only way to get out of this situation is to kill everyone in the entire region because there will always be recruits.

The question is what are we trying to accomplish here?

[spursncowboys]

Just out of curiosity, who writes the rules of engagement?

The ROE I have the most problem with comes from ISAF.

[spursncowboys]

WH: Yeah Im in Afghanistan. Near Jalalabad. My last deployment was in Iraq, in 06-07 in the "Triangle of Death" south of Baghdad.
Thanks everyone for the kind words. I guess I have been gone long enough for you all to forget when I would piss you off. Awesome.
Randomguy: Yeah I read a Afghan history book that was really good and took a 3 wk Dari language class. Other than that, not much Afghan culture. My unit had previously deployed to here so they helped alot. I couldn't believe how different it is here. Afghans are alot more traditional. Woman completely cover their body and when we come by or drive by they squat down and turn their back to us. I was also apart of the surge in Iraq and before making the populace embrace us , we secured it. That meant door to door clearing buildings. Then we brought in small cobs to keep the guys from coming back.

[spursncowboys]

The average US military recruit could no more name the major ethnicities, languages, or religious denominations of Afghanistan than you could before we went into Afghanistan without using google, dip . Americans in general really really suck at that.

Soldiers on the ground get VERY myopic when it comes to the countries they serve in, simply because their field of vision is pretty narrow. They are topical experts on their limited areas of operations, but you have to take a LOT of accounts and put them together before you get a coherent picture.

The fact that the OP is ing about his rules of engagement, and the manner in which he did it very clearly demonstrates that he was not familiar with the specifics of WHY.

That is true, that I, at my level, cannot see the big picture. I stated that in the original op though. My point was my area. It doesn't take a one star general to tell you that the ROE are not working unless the plan is to stay for 30 years with the stalemate we are in.
I think you are assuming alot of my knowledge base though.

[spursncowboys]

One great thing about my are are the locals for the most part are as helpful as they can be. Not too long ago, we got hit with 4 rpgs and we went after the guys. While going through the village, his hiding spots were being poointed out by the people living their. Another huge difference is the army and police are not corrupt. they love our help. We have been here in Afghanistan for 10 years and in my area we are going to villages who have never seen americans and helpful without any financial incentive.

[spursncowboys]

I have a huge amount of respect for grunts in the field. Some of the smartest people in the army end up in the 11B MOS, for various reasons.

I also know the strengths and weaknesses of their viewpoints. It is entirely possible to be out there risking your life, and have incorrectly assessed the overall strategic situation or goals.

It happens all the time, and will as long as armies exist.

The strengths of the view point is that you get a very close to the source look at their AO.

The weakness is that is the limit of what you get, and the collective amassing of information sometimes leads one to form different conclusions than one might get "in the trenches".

The inverse is true for battlefield commanders, who have to rely on summaries.

I also know, from first hand experience in talking to a lot of people who did go over there, just how little area knowledge they had going in.

Is it your contention that the average basic training recruit in the US military knows the difference between Shia and Sunni? Uzbek and Pashtun? Can name the four principle ethnic groups in Iraq? Afghanistan?

You have criticized me for saying they can't. That is simply an acknowledgement of the fact that most Americans, you included, don't either.

It is a cold, hard fact.

Infantry are ok but not as good as Cav.
of course the joes don't know anything. they dont need to. But tm leaders and section sgts and up have to be knowledgable in the customs, language, and daily routines of their AO.

[RandomGuy]

That is true, that I, at my level, cannot see the big picture. I stated that in the original op though. My point was my area. It doesn't take a one star general to tell you that the ROE are not working unless the plan is to stay for 30 years with the stalemate we are in.
I think you are assuming alot of my knowledge base though.

I am indeed. You could have a great deal of knowledge outside the normal briefings for all I know, and will definitely get a good deal of first hand education as time goes by.

The ROE is simply a "rubber meets the road" attempt to satisfy the requirements of the counter insurgency doctrine.

How would you change them specifically, and why?

It is always good to get a first-hand view on this.

[RandomGuy]

That's the slippery slope. It's obvious we're in a screwed up situation with this war. Like John Wooden usta say all the time "Failure to prepare is preparing to fail." We went into this with "shoot first, ask questions later" tactics and now we have no exit plan whatsoever. The only way to get out of this situation is to kill everyone in the entire region because there will always be recruits.

The question is what are we trying to accomplish here?

I disagree that we have to kill "everyone in the entire region", but do agree that we went in with a "shoot first, ask questions later" mindset.

Sadly it took the Bush administration YEARS and THOUSANDS of our servicemembers dying before they pulled their heads ouf of their asses.

The ed invasion of Iraq drained the resourses that SHOULD have been spent in Afghanistan. But that is a "shoulda" that is irrelevant now.

We will be there until we can essentially build up a fair national government in Afghanistan. That requires MUCH more time and efffort than Iraq, since Afghanistan has no oil, and even less human capital and/or physical infrastructure.